Weapon Training in Mantis

[mooyingmantis]

How do you train weapons in your school?

Below are some questions to help us understand how you train weapons:

1. Do you see weapons training as obsolete in the modern world?

2. Do you pass on weapons training because it is a part of the larger tradition?

3. Do you train weapons only through solo forms?

4. Do you have a way of sparring with weapons?

5. From a percentage perspective, how would you compare your emphasis on weapon's training with your emphasis on empty-hand training?

[MightyB]

How do you train weapons in your school?

Below are some questions to help us understand how you train weapons:

1. Do you see weapons training as obsolete in the modern world?

2. Do you pass on weapons training because it is a part of the larger tradition?

3. Do you train weapons only through solo forms?

4. Do you have a way of sparring with weapons?

5. From a percentage perspective, how would you compare your emphasis on weapon's training with your emphasis on empty-hand training?

my personal approach and opinion-

1. Yes and No. Stick and Knife are still applicable- even club which could be translated as darn dao, or cern sau dao, or cern dao - cern bei (sp?) (two daggers). Staff/gon (sp?) again could be applicable. Always wanted to learn the eyebrow height staff - never did though. Basically- I think after awhile of doing the various weapons training- you become reasonably proficient in the use of improvised non-ballistic weaponry. Lately I've been thinking about buying a collapsable baton just because...

2. Yes and No. I've only passed on two weapons sets since having to move away from my old kwoon. And that was because the guy was interested, had prior TCMA training, asked, and is a friend. Those forms being goon le guan, and lok hop cern dao (sp?).

3. Nowadays yes - back in the school - no. You learned through solo sets, progressed to two person sets, engaged in pre-arranged sparring, then advanced to spontaneous weapons sparring. When my Sifu used to hold his tournament, it was one of the few that had freestyle weapons sparring as an event.

4. Yes - we used padded weaponry, sparring gloves, chest protectors, and hockey helmets with throat guards... it's way fun! You all should try it!

5. Nowadays 10% weapon- back in the kwoon days, I'd say 50/50... it really depended on what Sifu wanted us Jo Gou to work on. In the "closed door" sessions, sometimes we'd drill weapons till we... I couldn't think of a witty saying to close that thought, but we'd drill the heck out of them. Solo, then spar... solo then spar, rinse and repeat.

Lately- what I find I work the most is a weapon form called Lok Hop Darn Dao. Then I work the most basic dao movement out of the dao's most basic drill (called dao jong in my old kwoon). What I work on is the "snap" of the initial block. It's been something that I think I need to perfect... don't know why - I do it fine enough for gov. work, but it's just something that I constantly work on.

[ginosifu]

I am not an "Mantis" player, however my favorite weapon is the Dagger. Not necessarily is it done in forms but, more offensive and defensive techniques.

I have over 50 different weapon foms swirling around in my head, plus another 10- 2 person weapon sets but nothing really applies to todays society. You can't go around walking the streets with a sword on your back... there are no horse riders with spears are around every corner.

There are those who are interested in a kinda fantasy that weapon forms relate to ancient Chinese martial arts and give some type of skill just by practicing the forms?

There are others that want to compete... I have some people that think weapon sets are "Neat" and learn them strictly for fun.

I have scale that I use for everyone in the Martial Arts. The scale is 90% of the population (that are in Martial Arts) does not want to learn how to fight or learn weapons for fighting or anything else that has to do with violence or physical contact. There needs are more for health / fitness / learning a asian art etc etc.

The other 10% are the people who fight street or tournaments, or that practice traditional Martial Arts with an aim to learn or pass the traditions of the ancient masters.

I like daggers because you can effectively train them, you can carry or conceal them easily. You can pick up most everyday objects (pecils, scissors, keys, comb etc etc) and use them as a dagger. I have several single / double dagger sets and I don't really worry about teaching those for self defense... Just take the drills / apps / techniques and use them to teach fighting.

ginosifu

[-N-]

We use weapons training more for developing aspects of body mechanics and fighting attitude than for the actual weapon applications themselves.

It's pretty common to see 2 man weapon forms done too cooperatively, where the partners are too far apart, anticipate the movements, and don't attack deep enough.

If you really want to learn the feeling of going in for the kill, learn the double dagger side of Double Daggers vs. Spear, and practice realistically. It can be a big help to the empty hand fighting.

[Three Harmonies]

I dived deep into this same query many years ago with Mantis. The overall conclusion I came too...

I have yet to find any system / teacher that is as effective, efficient, and evolved in terms of weapon based combatives as Pekiti Tirsia Kali! The top weapons players and "experts" in CMA would get eaten alive by my 6 month students in Kali. The Chinese just never focused on developing a solid curriculum, and in my opinion focused on big, flamboyant weapons in lieu of more practical pragmatic weapons.

Cheers
JAB

[EarthDragon]

call me crazy, but as they say weapons are an extentions of the body, so it is my personal beilef that the body must be mastered before the extentions of them are.

therefore weapons should be trained after you have mastered your body. what good is it to have 10 weapons sets when we cant apply the empty handed ones with perfection.

[mooyingmantis]

I dived deep into this same query many years ago with Mantis. The overall conclusion I came too...

I have yet to find any system / teacher that is as effective, efficient, and evolved in terms of weapon based combatives as Pekiti Tirsia Kali! The top weapons players and "experts" in CMA would get eaten alive by my 6 month students in Kali. The Chinese just never focused on developing a solid curriculum, and in my opinion focused on big, flamboyant weapons in lieu of more practical pragmatic weapons.

Cheers
JAB

Jake,
Agreed! Close up and personal the Philippino knife and stick arts rock. I was amazed and humbled the first time I ever encountered an Arnis de Mano teacher.
Though I don't think I would want to take a knife to a spear fight.

[blackjesus]

therefore weapons should be trained after you have mastered your body. what good is it to have 10 weapons sets when we cant apply the empty handed ones with perfection.

Agree. Unless you are only doing the weapon for fun or you are in the army

[blackjesus]

I saw my seniors doing Boardsword + "gwei" VS three section stick before.
It looks amazing but can you use it in real life? I don't think so.
But it is good to keep the tradition though.

[mantid1]

Dont take the post the wrong way I still think the CMA be great for self defense.....but

First off I feel sorry for the poor person who trains every day getting ready for the attack from the shadows......must be a very sad existence.....probably needs to talk to someone.

Many of my students have carry permits....much easier to carry around than kali sticks. Pepper spray works wonders when you see a guy coming at you with kali sticks in the parking lot at wally world....also does great when you are reaching for your wallet when the guy has a knife. (not picking on three....I happen to agree with him...just an example)

I have served in the military but fortunatly did not have to see combat. I have had the honor or training individuals who unfortunatly have seen combat and have had to take life in recent wars and even as far back as vietnam and the big one. The funny thing is.....they just love the physical and mental challenge of CMA it makes them feel better and I am guessing that they are relieved that they DONT have to fear for their lives everyday. Most of these guys like the apps but are less concerned with them than many here. These are the guys I have met and taught....I am sure there are others that may act or feel differently.

In a world where more and more people are doing non physical work for a living the CMA can play an important role in keeping people mentally and physically healthy. The different levels of training including different weapons can keep peoples interest peaked for years....which in turn will keep them training and healthy without becoming bored like some may get with running, lifting......

Do I teach Chinese weapons? Hell Yeah! Will they save your life? Hell yeah....they can help maintain your health and happiness for years!

I tell my students to put down the doritos and weed, turn of the xbox and train...you will feel better!!!

[gilbride100]

Do the millions of competitive fencers and kendoka out there worry about whether their arts are "practical" for self-defense? Or are they practicing for the sheer joy of comparing their skills against other swordsmen? Fencing with historical weapons is not about being practical- it's something people do for its own sake. CMA is way behind in developing this aspect, and I've never understood the lack of interest in it. Most of the CMA schools out there practice with weapons- yet very few know what it's like to actually cross blades with an opponent.

[EarthDragon]

CMA is way behind in developing this aspect, and I've never understood the lack of interest in it. Most of the CMA schools out there practice with weapons- yet very few know what it's like to actually cross blades with an opponent.

fencing is the sport of sword play, there is no empty handed techniques you must first learn, as hier are in MA. Therefore as I said in my last post you must or should master your own empty hand first before trying to master a weapon.

lets pass the 1 st grade before we go onto high school shall we?

[gilbride100]

Chinese swordplay can be and has been trained completely separately from empty hand techniques, which would have been of limited use to anyone practicing CMA before 1900. You can be a very effective Chinese-style swordsman without mastering empty-hand fighting first.

[Tainan Mantis]

Chinese swordplay can be and has been trained completely separately from empty hand techniques,

True, as well as all weapons of the Chinese military.

[Codeboy]

I have only learned the first sets of the Broadsword (Baht Gwa Dao), Staff (Mm Long Gwan) and Gan (Cern Gan) but I know others at the school have learned Spear, Bench, Longsword (Gim), three section staff, hook swords and double (big freakin) hammers As well as quite a few different "vs" sets such as spear vs sword, etc. I'm sure MightyB can probably add to the list as I don't think the school currently has enough advanced students for sifu to teach some of these weapons.