Yip Man in Fatsan

[Vajramusti]

I also believe that the flipping is not for flipping's sake. It has to do with picking up and using the weapon in a reverse grip.


Lastly, I have problems with the sword form.

("THE" sword form? Which one is that?))

It's so...simple, direct, straight, etc. Any weapon doesn't work well like that.
((Depends on what you have seen or ben shown))

There's not follow-through or flow in most traditional practices with it.

((Again- deepnds on what you have seen))

Look at the way Ryan does it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_YJBthjqlw

((Ugh))

He HAS to follow through and let the weight of the knives carry through.

The sword form that a lot of Ip Man folks have is crap, anyways.

((Ip Man taught only a few the form- the rest some san sik here and there))

Like the form is some coveted piece of artwork or something when there was nothing but Sik anyways. Even in my (Moy Yat) 'family tree' there are HUGE discrepancies on where footwork is missing, changed, etc. No back-kick in Wing Chun? I've met someone who has one in their sword form.

((When the original is incomplete- all kinds of variations can occur))

Not to derail this thread...just my ideas on knife stuff.

Best,
CTK

(Thanks for sharing your opinions)) Joy

[KPM]

But why not turn the knifes????


---Changing from a forward grip to a reverse grip or vice versa requires fine motor skills. During the heat of a real encounter with deadly weapons, when the adrenaline is running high, fine motor skills tend to go out the window! So there is a high likelihood of losing your grip or making a fatal "fumble" when trying to change grips in this situation. This little pearl of wisdom applies to tactical folders, so when trying to change grips on a bigger and heavier blade it would likely be even more problematic.


and why keep distance???? (really! i'm asking!)

---Its not distance you are trying to keep. Its the point of the blade between you and the opponent that you are trying to keep! An opponent is very hesitant to rush forward at you if it means he might be impaled on the point of your weapon, or run into the edge . This threat is gone when you flip the weapon around into a reverse grip. The longer the blade, the more space your opponent has to maintain to avoid it. Holding it in the reverse grip means the opponent doesn't have to worry about avoiding the barrier your weapon would represent if it was in the forward grip when he closes on you.


Personally...... If i was against a long weapon, I would move in as soon as i had the chance and turning the knife would get you even closer with more power would it not?

---It may get you closer, but if your weapon is reversed when you get there, then you are not using it to its best advantage. If you are going to close against a longer weapon, don't you want to be chopping and slicing while you do so?

[Liddel]

Look at the way Ryan does it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_YJBthjqlw

He HAS to follow through and let the weight of the knives carry through

.

Judging by the Turning jump we are different lineages but for me if i look at the source of my tool box the form- the majority of attacks are thrusts.
Now if you were taught well where i train the thrust combined with good wrist force and elbow connection is powerful. Its inch power but is easily better understood under the description 'snapping power'. But even with the Swings, with good mechanics you can make attacks powerful enough to have effect without over extending or being less economic IMO.

Personally...... If i was against a long weapon, I would move in as soon as i had the chance and turning the knife would get you even closer with more power would it not?

Well just like elbow attacks in H2H you have to GET closer.

An experienced user of say the pole would know how to distance himself and use leverage from the size and force of his weapon to hit and press you away.

But Secure Seizures like Gap Do as an example can trap the pole (Launched from Guarn Do in the form) It uses a pressing force with the Do and encorporates the shoulder as a touch point ( to get more leverage on the seizure ).
Non secure techs use extended horse action with say upward strikes after immediate blocks to negate the pole and slice the user.

Just trying to get close and shut a guy down could be dangerous if you haven't used one of the basic strategies introduced in the forms and Chi Do though.

You can weather a flurry of heavy punches and remain in a fight but with weapons you get stuck and it serious business.

Flipping the Blades is akin to trading in the pocket with your hands down below your shoulders, never as good as a good head guard or just holding your DO the standard way.

I believe it was introduced for show and caught on.

[T.D.O]

Thanks for the answers


But i'll have to wait till i've trained with the knifes to see


Cheers again

[LoneTiger108]

Rubbish. Simply rubbish.

There's YOUR disrespectful manner Robert! Funny that...

It would be much better for all of us if you just share a clip of your preferred knife form. Until then, why bother posting insults like that?

[chusauli]

The knives set that flipped, flipped and flipped, was flippin' poor... it showed a lack of understanding of the use of the knives, and clearly all made up for performance. Many of the Shaw Bros. choreography was better by far, and I suspect maybe some are closet "kung fu theatre" fans drawing inspiration. What great things did you see in that clip? I saw rubbish. Tell me why you think it was great.

I have shown my knives through articles and my book. People who know Yip Man's WCK will see the signature marks I demonstrated in the book or articles of the knife sets I studied, yourself included, despite your alleged claims of Lee Shing. In Yip Man's set, the knives are not flipped. Most of the seniors who learned from Yip Man do not flip the knives. Even in William Cheung's set, they are not flipped.

If you want to see my set, you can visit with Alan who is local to you. You can also see my pole there. I'm sure you English chaps would enjoy a wonderful teatime and discussion.

Personally, I have taught much of the pole on my DVD series.

I'm not a publicity seeker like people who want to post on youtube. Usually if people want to see my martial arts, they are welcome to visit me personally.

[Nite Templar]

I was asked once before about my background. I'm a student of Victor Parlati for the last 8 plus years. And he's demonstrated both the TWC butterfly swords and the VT butterfly swords he learned from Moy Yat in front of me a few times. And I specifically recall him flipping the swords while doing the Moy Yat version, as well as remembering Victor saying that he not only saw Moy Yat do it, but that Moy Yat explained the application as being a defense against a weapon coming down upon you from above. He further said that, according to Moy Yat, this is the main application of the elbow strikes in the bil jee form. Although it is true that in the William Cheung TWC version there is no flipping of the swords.

[hunt1]

What crazy stuff to argue about flip don't flip' What a waste of time.

Yip Ching was taught by his father . There are witnesses. He was taught to flip. So its clear Yip Man taught both for what ever reasons.

Can you flip in a fight with against other weapons? Best way to learn is give it a try. Are their other training benefits to flipping other than combat applications? Yup! KPM mentioned just overall motor skill development. Nothing wrong with that.

strange how folks will say the hand forms are not direct this is how to do it in combat forms but all moves in the knife form have to have a direct application . Who is the final decider of direct combat applications anyway? How did the decider decide what works and what doesn't?

Crazy stuff. there are some core points to the knives both hand,body and footwork. As long as these core points are covered who cares about other personal flairs added.

[chusauli]

Ho Kam Ming, Hawkins Cheung, Koo Sang, Tsui Sheung Tien/Chu Shang Tin, Wong Shun Leung, Leung Ting, William Cheung and others don't flip their knives. Apparently Yip Man in Futshan did not, based on what was taught to Lun Gai.

Under stress and against a spear attack, you'd be hard pressed to be able to flip your knives. Of course, all knifework should be based on practicality. Try it out.

Yip Chun, Yip Ching, Moy Yat and a few others do flip. To each their own.

[chusauli]

I was asked once before about my background. I'm a student of Victor Parlati for the last 8 plus years. And he's demonstrated both the TWC butterfly swords and the VT butterfly swords he learned from Moy Yat in front of me a few times. And I specifically recall him flipping the swords while doing the Moy Yat version, as well as remembering Victor saying that he not only saw Moy Yat do it, but that Moy Yat explained the application as being a defense against a weapon coming down upon you from above. He further said that, according to Moy Yat, this is the main application of the elbow strikes in the bil jee form. Although it is true that in the William Cheung TWC version there is no flipping of the swords.

Sure Nite, what is your real name?

[k gledhill]

Japanese sai are flipped, might be the similarity with large tangs. The Knives I was given by PB where designed by Ym > WSL > PB > me with small tang .
The small size allows the knives to be tightly manipulated with tight wrist positions as you rotate high and low simultaneously ....if you try this with large 'flip friendly' tangs it will tie up and bind your attempts to rotate at speed....

[TenTigers]

I don't think anyone would, or should flip their knives at long range.
In close I can see it, however.
Even in FMA knife fighting, you are taught to flip between forward and reverse grip.
After awhile, it becomes natural. (shouldn't your training become natural anyway?)
just my .02

[Sihing73]

Sure Nite, what is your real name?

Well, he shares the same IP as Victor so I would say it is Vic, trying to be slick.

Noticed that when he first started posting and called Vic out on it. Victor emailed me and made the claim that Nite Templar was his student. That Nite sent Victor all of the posts for Victor to approve of first, and that Victor, AFTER HE WAS BANNED then posted them on the forum. When I called him on this he tried to claim I could not read, but hey I could forward the emails if anyone were interested. It just amuses me how some people think they actually get over on others. But, like I told him, as long as he does not go back down the same road as before he is welcome to stay.

[anerlich]

I'm predicting T will reappear under another name, if he hasn't already. I can use office home or an internet cafe, and have sometimes considered getting an alter ego to annoy. Maybe I already have.

TWC doesn't flip.

I've met or talked to enough guys who have trained with sharp weapons who have cut themselves, even quite accomplished guys cutting finger tendons from just badly replacing the blades in whatever scabbard they have. IMO the flip seems way too risky for RL. Actually, using sharp blades at all seems way too risky.

Realistically, you've got about as much chance of getting struck by lightning on a sunny day as you do of finding yourself in a RL defense situation armed with a pair of WC swords. About the same as you do of getting around town in cars, taxis, trains carrying a thirteen foot 6.5 point pole for use if mugged.

You want to flip and play with butterfly swords, and spar against poles, do that. You want to train knife defense for RL, get a combat folder and learn to use that. I do both of those except the sword flipping, FWIW.

[Nite Templar]

To be clear about this, my name is Roman Farnacci. I became Victor's student one year after he moved his school to Brooklyn, back in December, 2002. I lurked here for about the last 4 years, and asked Victor's permission to post here after he was banned. He said that I could have posted from day one if I wanted to. When the link to join was sent to me - out of respect I forwarded it to Victor, and he finished my login. But he's only been posting what I send him in an email. True, he's given me some advice a few times about what to say or not say, but they have been my posts that he's posted. He doesn't write or edit them. If I sound like Victor it's because he's had a big influence on me.