Yip Man in Fatsan

[Vajramusti]

Hello,

Unless the forms have changed dramatically over the years, the opening movements of the WT SNT are not a sharp or quick movement used against attacks to the lower gates. The Crossed Taun/Gaun Sau in the beginning of the form is really for defining your center.

(((That is a common view. But I will be a bit contrary- I don't agree. Defining your center???- The crossing is at the centerline-true, but:You feel your center and should be able to do that while just standing at the beginning.In my slt there is a sup gee sau after you get into the yee gee kim yeung ma. With proper practice and devlopment the sup gee sau is pretty effective against a powerful incoming kick or knee. The sup ge sau also shows up in bot jam do as sup ge do)))Joy

The movement you seem to be referring to is in the last section of the SNT. However, it would be unfair to label it as a sharp attack used to defend to the lower gates. When done, there should be a turn of the lower arm which then replaces the upper arm. I was always taught that this was one possibility to defend against a wrist grab. The turning of the lower hand aided in breaking the structure/grip of the holding arm and the strike downward completed the action to cause the release.

((We call the movement before the last punches- teut sao. A strong wrist grab? Recommend punchinh him out with the other hand rather than teut sao. The motion can also be an inside groin punch after touching.We sure have variety in wing chun.))Joy

The two movements you describe would be the Gaun Sau and the Gwat Sau. Both are distinct as the Gaun stops at the center or midline while the Gwat passes outward and can be used to sweep an incoming kick as you describe. But they are two distinct movements with different energies.

((Sup gee and teut are different. Ip man did not create an elaborate, common and fixed dictionary of terms. So many lineages have their own labels and LT's is different from some others. This relates to geezer's question))Joy

[k gledhill]

The level of the arms in the opening moves double wu to start > then double Man xing at wrists > then back to double WU X , this is done low to stop beginners raising and lowering elbows, pertains to the thread about shoulders raising ....
the wrists x before the sternum and push out along the centerline, sweeping it clean.

tut sao is the same idea done low to stop raising elbows up and down, but now we have developed the idea to cycle lead hand man and rear hand wu , man/wu, recycle in the same timing to create a new attacking hand as the lead is attacking, followed in SLT by what looks like simple chain punching ...constant attacking.
If the wu is trapped or unable to cycle not good for VT .... If you train with P Bayer you here this a lot DURING chi-sao practice.....WU SAO ! ....Wu sao !....

Not for wrist grabs !! , this idea is born from lack of understanding the basic idea of SLT / VT. ergo looking for applications in SLT.

[Sihing73]

Dave if you have good inch/wrist power - (aiding the turning lower hand) if you turn the upper forearm when you strike downward it will add great power and greater success to such an action IME. Thats why in many SLT forms (at least some ive seen) the action begins with the upper hand having the palm facing up and when the action is complete the palm is facing down(two forces acting together)....and thats SHARP VT inch power right there !

True, I thought I explained that as the wrist turns as it goes down the arm. Both the lower and upper turn, although the lower only turns about halfway. I've also found that the Gaun can be used more as an attack if one varies the striking surface. For example, if one angles the Gaun to keep it at a slight angle one will hit with the bony portion and cause more pain than if one hits with the arm flat.

Harder to describe than to demonstrate.

[Sihing73]

((Sup gee and teut are different. Ip man did not create an elaborate, common and fixed dictionary of terms. So many lineages have their own labels and LT's is different from some others. This relates to geezer's question))Joy

True enought Joy. Also there are plenty of variations for many of the movments trained. The forms provide a framework upon which to build. If one limits themselves to A=B than they run the risk of missing so much more, imo.

Of course, I am sure I have missed much in my journey which is why I am still learning.

[CFT]

Getting back on subject, notice how Lun Gai uses the Gaun Sao in the 3rd section of SNT? (Chee, you may have to put up the link again, please!)

This seems contrary to the oral history of Wong Shun Leung where he fails to block a side kick to his ribs and is taken out on a stretcher in Taiwan, and later, Yip Man teaches him the "secret Leung Bik" version of SNT, and adds a Gaun Sao in it. In fact, all the WSL schools teach a Tan/Hum/Tan Sao section, followed by a Tan/Gaun/Tan section.

Personally, after viewing Lun Gai's forms, I am pretty sure that Yuen Kay Shan stands as a hidden ancestor of Yip Man WCK, that Yip Man learned from YKS, modified his forms to conform more to what YKS was doing, yet since Yip was not an actual descendant of the YKS lineage, referred to him as a "mysterious ancestor" (much of what was referred to as "Leung Bik"). Hunt1 here has referred to another person being "Leung Bik".

Here you go: SNT, CK, BJ, knives, pole. Some drills and apps. in between the empty hand and weapon forms.
http://www.56.com/u74/v_NDgwODQ2NzE.html

Whether YKS is a hidden ancestor in YMWCK I of course can't say. But Lun Gai was friendly with Sum Nung. That is another possible point of influence.

[chusauli]

Here you go: SNT, CK, BJ, knives, pole. Some drills and apps. in between the empty hand and weapon forms.
http://www.56.com/u74/v_NDgwODQ2NzE.html

Whether YKS is a hidden ancestor in YMWCK I of course can't say. But Lun Gai was friendly with Sum Nung. That is another possible point of influence.

I only say "hidden ancestor" since YKS may have only helped Yip Man wth his choreography, tidying things up in Chum Kiu, refining the pole, adding in Poon/Luk Sao and the like.

The other thing is when Yip Man taught in HK, he first taught Jum Sao in the 3rd section, as opposed to his earlier Gaun Sao that he taught Lun Gai in Futshan. Yip's HK SNT then had perhaps the added YKS Jum Sao in that 3rd section. The SLT of YKS has no Gaun Sao. So this is why I suspect YKS is "Leung Bik". YKS, because of traditional modesty had Ao, the pulp fiction novelist, write his exploits as "Leung Jan", and because of familial relations with Yip Man's family, did not accept Yip Man as a student, and to give face to the Chan Wah Shun lineage.

Only when Yip Man moved to a new "country" (British owned HK) was he able to implement more of the innovations and changes which would have been openly criticized in Futshan by his many seniors. Yip Man, beiing the youngest of Chan Wah Shun's students would have to listen to his elders. Only in HK, away from the seniors, could Yip Man openly teach his innovations. This puts Yip Man in a new light of innovator, as opposed to inheritor.

I know for many, without understanding Chinese cultural norms and customs probably would dismiss my explanation here, but at least it is food for thought for the more open minded.

[Grumblegeezer]

Only when Yip Man moved to a new "country" (British owned HK) was he able to implement more of the innovations and changes which would have been openly criticized in Futshan by his many seniors. Yip Man, beiing the youngest of Chan Wah Shun's students would have to listen to his elders. Only in HK, away from the seniors, could Yip Man openly teach his innovations. This puts Yip Man in a new light of innovator, as opposed to inheritor.

I know for many, without understanding Chinese cultural norms and customs probably would dismiss my explanation here, but at least it is food for thought for the more open minded.

Yip Man as "innovator"...yet only after moving to Hong Kong. Actually, that's a very interesting take on things. My old sifu also felt that GM Yip made many changes after leaving the mainland, but he attributed them to a mix of inspiration and forgetfulness over time. He felt that GM Yip, over his many years in Hong Kong and enduring a difficult life with many personal troubles, actually became rather vague about how certain movements and sets were originally performed. On the other hand, he was brilliantly aware of the function they served, so he ended up, by necessity, re-structuring things as he saw fit... something that he would not have done had he not moved away to Hong Kong. The irony is that, in "forgetting" a bit of the old way, my old sifu felt that GM Yip actually improved some of the material by streamlining it and eliminating some impractical and redundant movements. Again, just food for thought.

[KPM]

I only say "hidden ancestor" since YKS may have only helped Yip Man wth his choreography, tidying things up in Chum Kiu, refining the pole, adding in Poon/Luk Sao and the like.

.

I think this theory has a lot of merit. Didn't Rene Ritchie say that Sum Nung told him directly that he was present during the creation of the Luk Sao rolling structure? If Yip Man learned Luk Sao (or participated in its development) from Yeun Kay Shan, then there is certainly a link.

[LoneTiger108]

I thought I'd better pick up some of Roberts points earlier in the thread before I even begin to look into this 'secret ancestor' claim he is throwing out there now about Yuen Kay San.

That is why it is confusing - why a prominent senior of Lee Shing chose to learn from Si Bok/Suk Yip Chun... makes it seem like Lee Shing taught no knives from Yip Man.

Interesting concept. A very famous Lee Shing student learns his knife from Ip Chun and it's taken that this means Lee Shing doesn't know the knives. Big jump there Robert IMO

According to Leung Ting, his knives are patterned directly after Yip Man's Knives...do they look the same? Notice the blades are meant for stabbing, not chopping.

See:

http://www.wingtsunusa.com/store/W042.html

Well, Leung Ting has said many things! FWIW his blade does not represent the ones I have personally seen in the Ip Man Tong. And yes, the blades inside are those used by Ip Man himself, as is the pole and wooden man.

Similarly, in Moy Yat's VT family, the blades are also stabbers, not choppers. Maybe any Moy Yat descendants can post them. These are supposedly also derived from Yip Man's knives.

When I studied with Koo Sang, he produced two types of knives, one a slasher, the other a stabber. The slasher looked like this:

http://www.woodendummies.co.uk/p-27-...ly-knives.aspx

So will the real BJD of Yip Man please stand up?

The koo sang design from Pagoda is very close to Joe Lees knives and what was in the tong, but not exactly the same. Check my clip @ 1:26 to see Ip Mans blades
http://www.youtube.com/user/yumyeurn.../3/4QmTwAmeAQw

I find all the variations of knife quite interesting, and funny really. I mean, how crazy can we all get about the simple design of a blade??

Rattan rings are not taught in WCK proper, like the flowery set movements you exhibited at Seni. Nor the flowery flag waved about like that, in WCK proper. To me, those are your Lee Shing VT "curriculum" items, if he taught those at all. The reason is "if", since other Lee Shing people teach, we have not seen those items in their curriculums.

I would take a guess that you personally haven't 'seen' much of Lee Shings students Wing Chun at all Robert. I know my Sifu would probably be offended by you even suggesting that these elements of training are not Wing Chun 'proper' (?) Tell me. How Many Lee Shing students have you actually met and trained with for more than a day?

There is Austin Goh and Joe Lee. One very very public and one very very private, and both very very knowledgable! So you tell me why you think you would have seen anything like a flag waving or a ring turning? These things are my Sifus way. His way of expressing what Lee Shing taught him. That's all. He trained all of us like this in the nineties, but never trained his seventies group in that manner. Do you know why?? No. Because you are an outsider, and many stories about Lee Shing have still to be told. By insiders like me.

Lee Shing, perhaps put these elements in his VT curriculum, making them pre-requisites to learning he pole and the knives, but they are not what we are all missing.

Pure speculation by yourself again Robert. No they're not what you are missing either, as you can not miss something you have never tried or learnt

[LoneTiger108]

I think this theory has a lot of merit. Didn't Rene Ritchie say that Sum Nung told him directly that he was present during the creation of the Luk Sao rolling structure? If Yip Man learned Luk Sao (or participated in its development) from Yeun Kay Shan, then there is certainly a link.

I've heard this story before too (on here!) and would strongly question it's truth. Interactive training has been in Martial Arts for thousands of years and there are many stories pinpointing their creation, one being the snake and crane.

Maybe YKS 'found' something among his learning that 'rediscovered' this interaction but as far as I'm aware they have been there since the beginning. It would be great to get some clear evidence, whatever the result, as if there is one thing in Wing Chun today that is greatly misunderstood it's our interactive practises IMHO. I know Looksau and I also know it isn't the same Looksau many people talk about.

Only when Yip Man moved to a new "country" (British owned HK) was he able to implement more of the innovations and changes which would have been openly criticized in Futshan by his many seniors. Yip Man, beiing the youngest of Chan Wah Shun's students would have to listen to his elders. Only in HK, away from the seniors, could Yip Man openly teach his innovations. This puts Yip Man in a new light of innovator, as opposed to inheritor.

It's wierd how things come around. I was always taught to understand that your martial generation is no reflection of what you have been taught or how you personally have taken the system in, yet here you use the 'Ip Man was the youngest' scenario instead of saying it how it was. He was the best Robert. Most talented. That's why he was left alone by his elders, because they knew his skill was unmatched. And in HK he didn't have any support from the Wing Chun community because they left him there alone to battle with all the other established families!! And gues what? Ip Man came out on top because they too knew his skill and his students also became famous for theirs.

How is that for more food for thought??

[k gledhill]

Spencer , trying to convince me that A. Goh is knowledgeable , too funny. He was considered by many and by my old sifu as being the 'kung fu clown' ....trying to stick up for him is loyalty , but its painting you with the same brush Im afraid.

[Graham H]

Agreed!!! Austin Goh's Kung Fu is right up there with the worst I've seen. In fact some of it is laugable. Didn't bother wasting my money there.

GH

[Vajramusti]

Agreed!!! Austin Goh's Kung Fu is right up there with the worst I've seen. In fact some of it is laugable. Didn't bother wasting my money there.

GH

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Wait a minute. In fairness:On this thread Spencer has not advocated learning from Goh, who is not his sifu.

joy chaudhuri

[LSWCTN1]

The koo sang design from Pagoda is very close to Joe Lees knives and what was in the tong, but not exactly the same.

What ways do these differ? these are the only knives I own, but my uncle has John Darwens old knives (which i believe where originally Joseph Chengs?) and Dad says that they're quite different.

Genuinley interested

[LoneTiger108]

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Wait a minute. In fairness:On this thread Spencer has not advocated learning from Goh, who is not his sifu.

joy chaudhuri

Thanks for the effort Joy, but I feel like this is my burden Everybody can say what they like about my Uncle/s but one thing is for sure. They are knowledgable in their areas of expertise, as an example Austins heigung is second to none and Joe Lees Biu Jii is one of the best I have seen.

Both their students are also very, very good, so as in Ip Mans story a persons teaching ability may not be as good as their martial ability, or vice versa, but if they have and teach good students then Wing Chun will continue IMHO.