Yip Man in Fatsan

[k gledhill]

not a good argument. All you need is one chop precisely anywhere there is a gap, no matter what technique you are discussing.
I think too many people are trying to use the flipped blade at the wrong range, wrong weapon, situation, etc.
That being said, in the knives that I was taught, (WCK or SPM) we don't flip either.
But in the Hung-Ga knives, we do, and in Sayoc Kali, a close-range FMA, it is done. In fact, in many (if not all) FMA, they teach reverse grip.
Reverse grip allows one to lock the arm, wrist, neck, run the neck,strike down into the subclavian artery, etc-not WCK technique, but blade technique nonetheless.
IMHO, with an art that is primarilly blade-oriented, I would tend to trust their experience over an art where it is a secondary weapon.
I would like to see examples of when and why the blade is used flipped, and perhaps a discussion on whether or not it is a viable technique, rather than having people just go back and forth,"yes it is." "No it's not."

we are talking tangs [aka guard] mate, not everything else as well but good point.

[emptyfist]

Some observations:

Parts of a sword: tang and quillon.

The use of the quillon in Taiji Broadsword.

[TenTigers]

Some observations:

Parts of a sword: tang and quillon.

The use of the quillon in Taiji Broadsword.

I talk..nobody listens....(sigh)

[Vajramusti]

I talk..nobody listens....(sigh)

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Ten Tigers- "listening"? ---you expect too much at a mad hatters party -that's internet forums for you.

joy chaudhuri

[chusauli]

Now I didn't say the demos were 'great', and I also said that this 'flipping' has it's time and place. So please, again, stop making more out of what I write here as it's getting boring!

OK, we both agree the demo was not great. Flipping without proper use is pointless is my point. Even in Okinawan kobujutsu sets of Tawada no Sai, Matayoshi no Sai, and Chatan Yara no Sai, the flipping is kept at a minimum. In the Sai use, yoko tangs were used to entrap a bo. In WCK knives, they are used to entrap a sword or pole by using a Jut or Tiu Dao action.

Alleged claims of what exactly??

You are part of the problem here Robert. Having shown your knife 'form' or set in a book or through pictures and articles shows very little IMHO. Just as the 108 books will not show you the transitions, there is no difference with the knives. Pick up a camera and show 1 set!! That's all I'm suggesting, because I will...

Alleged claims I refer to is that Lee Shing studied the knives under Yip Man. Your Uncle Austin shows Yip Chun's knives in his book. I have no idea what your other LS relatives do, or if they do Yip Man's set. That is also a part of the problem. It seems that Lee Shing did not teach Austin the knives, hence he learned from Yip Chun.

As I said, you could come for a visit, or your could see my disciple Alan, in your hometown.

You never trained under Ip Man so you do not know. The seniors you mention can speak for themselves and although much can be said for the Ip Family approach to teaching, I would go with their version of the forms as they were taught by Ip Man too. As much as he could at the time I believe.

You're talking silly. By your own logic then, you don't know Lee Shing's WCK... you did not study with him, so how do you know Lee Shing's WCK? Maybe all you know is your Sifu's interpretation of Lee Shing's stuff, which you in turn attempt to market as Lee Shing's art.

All I state is my observation that many of the Yip Man seniors don't flip the knives in their sets. As I stated, Ho Kam Ming, Hawkins Cheung, Koo Sang, Tsui Sheung Tien/Chu Shang Tin, Wong Shun Leung, Leung Ting, William Cheung, and Lun Gai. I have either trained under these men, or seen their sets personally, and know that Yip Man taught them.

Spencer, a lot of foot in mouth syndrome, eh?

I've always said my door is open to Alan and I'm sure we will have similarities but I don't know why you're pimping him out when it's you I am interested in. It's you who keeps throwing my own words at me, and it's you who everyone else here wants to see move!!

He is my disciple, I taught him my knowledge. I am not "pimping him out" as you state, which is stupid. I only state a means to see my knives set in your locale.

FWIW I do not teach the knives unless students have drilled the rattan rings, and as I too am not a public Sifu, I only teach personally from home anyway. I'm not interested in all this publicity seeking either. Still, that's not my reason to use Youtube or post here either. I do that for networking and open exchange purposes.

Since you are in the market to teach WCK, you try to sell your Lee Shing brand of WCK via youtube. For you, it "Lee Shing this..." and "Lee Shing that..." and you never met Lee Shing, let alone trained with him. Rattan rings, flag pole... is this WCK? Or just a Spencer creation?

[chusauli]

I talk..nobody listens....(sigh)

Welcome to the WCK world. LOL!

Let's have some Shark Fin soup!

[k gledhill]

I talk..nobody listens....(sigh)

Ok ok we are talking er, quillons, hah

[LoneTiger108]

Some observations:

Parts of a sword: tang and quillon.

The use of the quillon in Taiji Broadsword.

I found these links quite interesting. And can see the people who didn't look at them. Still using the tang

I talk..nobody listens....(sigh)

I hear ya

[LoneTiger108]

In the Sai use, yoko tangs were used to entrap a bo. In WCK knives, they are used to entrap a sword or pole by using a Jut or Tiu Dao action.

No. I hold the tang Robert, it's the quillon that's used for trapping weaponry Although I was never taught these European terms, the knife/sword is sectioned off in a very similar way. Some would say that's one of the reasons behind the name Bart Jaam Dao, dividing the knife into eight sections for application.

Alleged claims I refer to is that Lee Shing studied the knives under Yip Man. Your Uncle Austin shows Yip Chun's knives in his book.

That was a difficult time for Uncle from my little knowledge of his history. It was when he also claimed Lee Shing kicked him out or something. I do not know exactly what Uncle Austin has or not as he has never shown me but I hear that Zurg Zeigler is probably one of his best and eldest students, so if anyone has trained with him it would be good to hear their opinions. I've just spent the weekend with two of his and Uncles students and it was enlightening for me.

I have no idea what your other LS relatives do, or if they do Yip Man's set. That is also a part of the problem.

Not a problem for me. I do know Uncle Joe Lee has claimed to have Ip Mans original blades as Lee Shing passed them to him. I have to say, from my research and seeing Ip Mans own knives myself they do look exactly the same. I also know that his set is as complete as they come, with flipping, and it is treasured by his many students too. Never shown to outsiders in fact.

By your own logic then, you don't know Lee Shing's WCK... you did not study with him, so how do you know Lee Shing's WCK? Maybe all you know is your Sifu's interpretation of Lee Shing's stuff, which you in turn attempt to market as Lee Shing's art.

You have helped me make a massive point with your response to my digging Robert. Thank you.

Following this logic, NOBODY knows Ip Man WCK either other than his direct students. What will interest me more is understanding how you view Wing Chun? I started a thread about style and system and if we're all interpreting our Sifus own personal style, then what Wing Chun have we actually got anyway?? Just some simple terms in CantonEnglish really

What exactly IS the Wing Chun system then? This is what Lee Shing taught his students and what my Sifu taught me. Yes, he had his own personality and his 'style' that I picked up too, but I know what the system is to me. He made those 'important points' which helped separate the wheat from the chaff. But even I will get carried away sometimes and lose myself in the art. It's one of the things that drew me to Wing Chun in the first place. It's simplicity. Its curriculum.

Since you are in the market to teach WCK, you try to sell your Lee Shing brand of WCK via youtube. For you, it "Lee Shing this..." and "Lee Shing that..." and you never met Lee Shing, let alone trained with him. Rattan rings, flag pole... is this WCK? Or just a Spencer creation?

Firstly, I don't market myself and I have no direct students. I promote Lee Shing Wing Chun because I'm currently the only person who has received some kind of permission to do so!! Do you have a problem with that or something?? I see it as no different to you promoting Yuen Kay San or Yik Kam or anyone else you introduced in your book you never learnt from directly. Are we to dismiss all your lifes research too??

We're both just simply offering what we think the 'flavour' of a persons WCK is. That's all. I have no other agenda other than uniting the Lee Shing family as sadly this hasn't been the case over the past 30 years or so. Now again, I am having to explain myself to you which I find ridiculous. I shouldn't have to explain myself to anyone, but I'm just that kinda guy! I don't like misunderstandings and I have said things like this before now to you but you bring it up again and again. No biggie, but please let us rest it there!

Oh, and the flag/rattan rings comment. This is All Lee Shing Wing Chun according to his number 7!(my Sifu) He refers to stuff like that as Wing Chun System, not Lee Shings personal stuff (like DNT) We actually discussed this the other night and found peoples narrow minded attitude to equipment practise quite wierd. Rattan rings are a precursor to the blades and flag is a pre cursor to the pole. Why can't you see that view? It is also what Ip Man taught Lee Shing but we don't want to go there do we or we may find more things that fry our brains...

Was Ip Man actually teaching the sytem or his own personal style??

[chusauli]

No. I hold the tang Robert, it's the quillon that's used for trapping weaponry Although I was never taught these European terms, the knife/sword is sectioned off in a very similar way. Some would say that's one of the reasons behind the name Bart Jaam Dao, dividing the knife into eight sections for application.

Quillon, fine. The Japanese term is yoko. Quillon sounds quite French. Interesting explanation why called BJD. Augustine Fong Sifu breaks down 8 parts of the foot to strike with, etc.

As a side note, so interesting that Lun Gai did his Biu Jee Lop Sao section like Augustine Fong's BJ.

That was a difficult time for Uncle from my little knowledge of his history. It was when he also claimed Lee Shing kicked him out or something. I do not know exactly what Uncle Austin has or not as he has never shown me but I hear that Zurg Zeigler is probably one of his best and eldest students, so if anyone has trained with him it would be good to hear their opinions. I've just spent the weekend with two of his and Uncles students and it was enlightening for me.

That is why it is confusing - why a prominent senior of Lee Shing chose to learn from Si Bok/Suk Yip Chun... makes it seem like Lee Shing taught no knives from Yip Man.

Not a problem for me. I do know Uncle Joe Lee has claimed to have Ip Mans original blades as Lee Shing passed them to him. I have to say, from my research and seeing Ip Mans own knives myself they do look exactly the same. I also know that his set is as complete as they come, with flipping, and it is treasured by his many students too. Never shown to outsiders in fact.

According to Leung Ting, his knives are patterned directly after Yip Man's Knives...do they look the same? Notice the blades are meant for stabbing, not chopping.

See:

http://www.wingtsunusa.com/store/W042.html

Similarly, in Moy Yat's VT family, the blades are also stabbers, not choppers. Maybe any Moy Yat descendants can post them. These are supposedly also derived from Yip Man's knives.

When I studied with Koo Sang, he produced two types of knives, one a slasher, the other a stabber. The slasher looked like this:

http://www.woodendummies.co.uk/p-27-...ly-knives.aspx

So will the real BJD of Yip Man please stand up?

You have helped me make a massive point with your response to my digging Robert. Thank you.

Following this logic, NOBODY knows Ip Man WCK either other than his direct students. What will interest me more is understanding how you view Wing Chun? I started a thread about style and system and if we're all interpreting our Sifus own personal style, then what Wing Chun have we actually got anyway?? Just some simple terms in CantonEnglish really

I said WCK is a system. Andrew Nerlich's dictionary meaning of both System and Style is what I said. Style is personal, your own game, timing, nuances, details. System is a "system of training, etc."

What exactly IS the Wing Chun system then? This is what Lee Shing taught his students and what my Sifu taught me. Yes, he had his own personality and his 'style' that I picked up too, but I know what the system is to me. He made those 'important points' which helped separate the wheat from the chaff. But even I will get carried away sometimes and lose myself in the art. It's one of the things that drew me to Wing Chun in the first place. It's simplicity. Its curriculum.

You might also care to distinguish curriculum and teaching methodology, too.

Firstly, I don't market myself and I have no direct students. I promote Lee Shing Wing Chun because I'm currently the only person who has received some kind of permission to do so!! Do you have a problem with that or something?? I see it as no different to you promoting Yuen Kay San or Yik Kam or anyone else you introduced in your book you never learnt from directly. Are we to dismiss all your lifes research too??

You're quite verbose about Lee Shing brand.

We're both just simply offering what we think the 'flavour' of a persons WCK is. That's all. I have no other agenda other than uniting the Lee Shing family as sadly this hasn't been the case over the past 30 years or so. Now again, I am having to explain myself to you which I find ridiculous. I shouldn't have to explain myself to anyone, but I'm just that kinda guy! I don't like misunderstandings and I have said things like this before now to you but you bring it up again and again. No biggie, but please let us rest it there!

Oh, and the flag/rattan rings comment. This is All Lee Shing Wing Chun according to his number 7!(my Sifu) He refers to stuff like that as Wing Chun System, not Lee Shings personal stuff (like DNT) We actually discussed this the other night and found peoples narrow minded attitude to equipment practise quite wierd. Rattan rings are a precursor to the blades and flag is a pre cursor to the pole. Why can't you see that view? It is also what Ip Man taught Lee Shing but we don't want to go there do we or we may find more things that fry our brains...

Was Ip Man actually teaching the sytem or his own personal style??

Rattan rings are not taught in WCK proper, like the flowery set movements you exhibited at Seni. Nor the flowery flag waved about like that, in WCK proper. To me, those are your Lee Shing VT "curriculum" items, if he taught those at all. The reason is "if", since other Lee Shing people teach, we have not seen those items in their curriculums.

Lee Shing, perhaps put these elements in his VT curriculum, making them pre-requisites to learning he pole and the knives, but they are not what we are all missing.

As for Yip Man, he taught his system (body of knowledge he imparted and trained students in), his curriculum (3 hand sets, one Jong, two weapons organized in his choreography), had his teaching methodology (more of a Socratic approach), and may or may not have passed on his personal style to everyone.

Most people fail to make the distinctions I have explained above, and crash.

[Vajramusti]

Lone tiger says:
Some would say that's one of the reasons behind the name Bart Jaam Dao, dividing the knife into eight sections for application.
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Some may say so.... but is it accurate?
It's not absolutely important to know but the bjd name is certainly Ip man's signature.
IMO Ip man could pickup any shape of a knife and make it work for him-because he had control over his motions.
No point in being dogmatic- there are different shapes of bjd-s floating around- the broader of the
koo sang versions. somehwat narrower Ho kam Ming's own knives, the narrow version sold by LT
and really broad ones with butterfly stamped on it-that is very commonly available. A student of mine got one from TST in HK.
I have no problem with Lone Tiger being proud of his lineage- a not uncommon phenomenon.
But I have seen no evidence of Lee Sing having learned either the pole or the knives directly from Ip Man. In the one clip of Lee Sing put out by Goh--Lee Sing is holding the pole in a different way
from those close first generation Ip Man folks who really learned the pole.

Ip Man was filmed with the pole and the knives when he was teaching the HK police...the film(s)
eventually were sold..and the buyer supposedly was and supposedly holding on to them upto now-LT!

joy chaudhuri

[chusauli]

I have no problem with Lone Tiger being proud of his lineage- a not uncommon phenomenon.
But I have seen no evidence of Lee Sing having learned either the pole or the knives directly from Ip Man. In the one clip of Lee Sing put out by Goh--Lee Sing is holding the pole in a different way
from those close first generation Ip Man folks who really learned the pole.

joy chaudhuri

Spencer might think Uncle Goh's actions do not affect you as a group, and you may not be able to speak publicly about your Uncle, but his demonstrations deny a correlation between what is known as Lee Shing's WCK and what was taught by Yip Man. Descendants of Yip Man who are familiar with the pole and knives he taught, know what trademarks or signatures Yip Man taught in the sets.

And with regards to your stories, Yip Man may have just sent Lee Shing a pair of knives as a gift; not necessarily mean a gesture, that "these are my authentic knives". Of course, wide-eyed newbies may choke out, "Wow! That's the real thing... only we have it!"

And then, there is the fact that we cannot deny, and that is, the further we are from Yip Man in generation, the more things change. Spencer is 3 generations from Yip Man.

The grip of the pole, and specific knife set movements like Bong Dao, Gaun Dao, Sheung Ha Sup Ji Dao, all tell who studied with Yip Man...and who may have modified them.

[Graham H]

He is my disciple,

Any man that calls another man his disciple is suffering from delusions of grandeur!!!

Get a grip!!! Its 2011

GH

[CFT]

Any man that calls another man his disciple is suffering from delusions of grandeur!!!

You should ask Alan about this. If he is happy with that that "labeling" in their relationship then it is no real concern of ours.

Since Alan teaches and "promotes" CSLWCK, it is perfectly reasonable to use the teacher/disciple label.

[TenTigers]

Any man that calls another man his disciple is suffering from delusions of grandeur!!!

Get a grip!!! Its 2011

GH

Discipleship, bai-si ceremony, etc is common among traditional schools, even nowadays. Actually, especially now, with all the commercialism, instant Sifus, lineage jumping, mudslinging, etc, maintaining tradition, cherishing your art, your relationship to your Sifu, yun yee do duk, is important-no crucial to the integrity of TCMA.