Yip Man in Fatsan

[Liddel]

All this discussion about flipping, Im yet to see it used once successfully in sparring or in Chi Do which is more isolated making it easier to achieve, so to those that can and do apply it well - i tip my hat to you.

Drew

[bennyvt]

go out and try it. yeh should have given terrence that theory. Cause 99% of people would either cut their hand off or drop the weapons and get screwed.
Victor never should have been banned anyway. We are MA guys which most would take offence to the massive crap put on his teacher by terrence and chu.
Im guessing that shing will delete this bit. Got to give it to you man your pretty quick.

[GlennR]

go out and try it. yeh should have given terrence that theory. Cause 99% of people would either cut their hand off or drop the weapons and get screwed.
Victor never should have been banned anyway. We are MA guys which most would take offence to the massive crap put on his teacher by terrence and chu.
Im guessing that shing will delete this bit. Got to give it to you man your pretty quick.

Hey Benny
Yeh,i tend to agree on the flippin thing... to much risk for questionable gain.

And i think youre right about Vic.
Whilst he went overboard, he was goaded again and again by T and finally cracked.
I think ist pretty simple... if you wouldnt say it to someonesface you shouldnt be allowed to get away with it on the forum. T constantly crossed that line.
Victor just bit.
And ill also agree with you in regards to RC...... just a more subtle version than T

[LoneTiger108]

Japanese sai are flipped, might be the similarity with large tangs. The Knives I was given by PB where designed by Ym > WSL > PB > me with small tang .

Looking at your picture I can understand why you wouldn't turn the blades. FWIW I have never seen Wing Chun knives that have such a short 'tang'. Pretty pointless even being there really. Have you ever thought that Bayer wasn't taught turning the blade because he physically couldn't do that due to his impairment? Just curious as his one blade is 'fixed' isn't it?

I use sai too and messed about with them more in my Shotokan days but they're a different animal to our blades, although the tang/ear size is very similar fme. Has to be as it's used to catch/disarm other larger weapons like the pole.

The small size allows the knives to be tightly manipulated with tight wrist positions as you rotate high and low simultaneously ....if you try this with large 'flip friendly' tangs it will tie up and bind your attempts to rotate at speed....

I've never found the size of the tang to be a problem.

I know this is all a bit feckless trying to explain or discuss this here but I will say this. I had a visit to my studio over the weekend by 2 kung fu cousins that wanted to meet me and exchange some ideas. We covered this subject, and although they had been taught the 'flip' they were not confident in using it. I spent less than ten minutes explaining and demonstrating and they were convinced after 30 seconds! They both have over 30 years experience in the Martial Arts and teach internationally.

Just saying. If you haven't been shown the finer details, don't go saying that it's useless!

[LoneTiger108]

The knives set that flipped, flipped and flipped, was flippin' poor... it showed a lack of understanding of the use of the knives, and clearly all made up for performance. Many of the Shaw Bros. choreography was better by far, and I suspect maybe some are closet "kung fu theatre" fans drawing inspiration. What great things did you see in that clip? I saw rubbish. Tell me why you think it was great.

Now I didn't say the demos were 'great', and I also said that this 'flipping' has it's time and place. So please, again, stop making more out of what I write here as it's getting boring!

I have shown my knives through articles and my book. People who know Yip Man's WCK will see the signature marks I demonstrated in the book or articles of the knife sets I studied, yourself included, despite your alleged claims of Lee Shing.

Alleged claims of what exactly??

You are part of the problem here Robert. Having shown your knife 'form' or set in a book or through pictures and articles shows very little IMHO. Just as the 108 books will not show you the transitions, there is no difference with the knives. Pick up a camera and show 1 set!! That's all I'm suggesting, because I will...

In Yip Man's set, the knives are not flipped. Most of the seniors who learned from Yip Man do not flip the knives. Even in William Cheung's set, they are not flipped.

You never trained under Ip Man so you do not know. The seniors you mention can speak for themselves and although much can be said for the Ip Family approach to teaching, I would go with their version of the forms as they were taught by Ip Man too. As much as he could at the time I believe.

If you want to see my set, you can visit with Alan who is local to you. You can also see my pole there. I'm sure you English chaps would enjoy a wonderful teatime and discussion.

I've always said my door is open to Alan and I'm sure we will have similarities but I don't know why you're pimping him out when it's you I am interested in. It's you who keeps throwing my own words at me, and it's you who everyone else here wants to see move!!

FWIW I do not teach the knives unless students have drilled the rattan rings, and as I too am not a public Sifu, I only teach personally from home anyway. I'm not interested in all this publicity seeking either. Still, that's not my reason to use Youtube or post here either. I do that for networking and open exchange purposes.

[Graham H]

Looking at your picture I can understand why you wouldn't turn the blades. FWIW I have never seen Wing Chun knives that have such a short 'tang'. Pretty pointless even being there really. Have you ever thought that Bayer wasn't taught turning the blade because he physically couldn't do that due to his impairment? Just curious as his one blade is 'fixed' isn't it?

Spencer these knives have been designed for practicality in sparring. Over size tangs cause problems. If for anyreason you disagree with this then it is obvious that you haven't sparred with knives with such swiftness and ferocity as is done in WSL - PB lineage.

I've never found the size of the tang to be a problem.

See above!!!

I know this is all a bit feckless trying to explain or discuss this here but I will say this. I had a visit to my studio over the weekend by 2 kung fu cousins that wanted to meet me and exchange some ideas. We covered this subject, and although they had been taught the 'flip' they were not confident in using it. I spent less than ten minuted explaining and demonstrating and they were convinced after 30 seconds! They both have over 30 years experience in the Martial Arts and teach internationally.

Just saying. If you haven't been shown the finer details, don't go saying that it's useless!

You can make many things in Kung Fu work if the wrong execution and ideas are applied but when the **** hits the fan it shows things for what they really are and seperates what can work and what cannot. Everything in the WSLPB lineage in for practicality. No unecessary BS, just hard work and sparring. No time for stupid ideas!!!!

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer these knives have been designed for practicality in sparring. Over size tangs cause problems. If for anyreason you disagree with this then it is obvious that you haven't sparred with knives with such swiftness and ferocity as is done in WSL - PB lineage.

So if I disagree I haven't sparred with weaponry? Hmmm

No time for stupid ideas!!!!

Sounds like no room for ANY ideas but again, you're Sifu Bayers students and will follow what you have been taught and that's fine. You probably also believe in the fully sharpened blades too. Amything that's practical right?

[k gledhill]

Looking at your picture I can understand why you wouldn't turn the blades. FWIW I have never seen Wing Chun knives that have such a short 'tang'. Pretty pointless even being there really. Have you ever thought that Bayer wasn't taught turning the blade because he physically couldn't do that due to his impairment? Just curious as his one blade is 'fixed' isn't it?

I use sai too and messed about with them more in my Shotokan days but they're a different animal to our blades, although the tang/ear size is very similar fme. Has to be as it's used to catch/disarm other larger weapons like the pole.



I've never found the size of the tang to be a problem.

I know this is all a bit feckless trying to explain or discuss this here but I will say this. I had a visit to my studio over the weekend by 2 kung fu cousins that wanted to meet me and exchange some ideas. We covered this subject, and although they had been taught the 'flip' they were not confident in using it. I spent less than ten minutes explaining and demonstrating and they were convinced after 30 seconds! They both have over 30 years experience in the Martial Arts and teach internationally.

Just saying. If you haven't been shown the finer details, don't go saying that it's useless!

What GH said....if you ARE using large tangs and getting away with high speed rotations , high to low, then your wrists are not constantly touching as you do this...ergo a gap in handles , a gap in your defensive line They should form a solid unbroken line ....all you need is one chop precisely in the gap mate to make you close them.
This wrist touching also ensures correct timing of each blade reaching the same point together as you face and rotate at high speed mindlessly. in a count of 1 , not 1-2 oops.

Mindless, mushin, no thinking, no gaps while fighting mindlessly ...if I find a gap its too late

Train Hard

[TenTigers]

What GH said....if you ARE using large tangs and getting away with high speed rotations , high to low, then your wrists are not constantly touching as you do this...ergo a gap in handles , a gap in your defensive line They should form a solid unbroken line ....all you need is one chop precisely in the gap mate to make you close them.This wrist touching also ensures correct timing of each blade reaching the same point together as you face and rotate at high speed mindlessly. in a count of 1 , not 1-2 oops.

Mindless, mushin, no thinking, no gaps while fighting mindlessly ...if I find a gap its too late

Train Hard

not a good argument. All you need is one chop precisely anywhere there is a gap, no matter what technique you are discussing.
I think too many people are trying to use the flipped blade at the wrong range, wrong weapon, situation, etc.
That being said, in the knives that I was taught, (WCK or SPM) we don't flip either.
But in the Hung-Ga knives, we do, and in Sayoc Kali, a close-range FMA, it is done. In fact, in many (if not all) FMA, they teach reverse grip.
Reverse grip allows one to lock the arm, wrist, neck, run the neck,strike down into the subclavian artery, etc-not WCK technique, but blade technique nonetheless.
IMHO, with an art that is primarilly blade-oriented, I would tend to trust their experience over an art where it is a secondary weapon.
I would like to see examples of when and why the blade is used flipped, and perhaps a discussion on whether or not it is a viable technique, rather than having people just go back and forth,"yes it is." "No it's not."

[LoneTiger108]

What GH said....if you ARE using large tangs and getting away with high speed rotations , high to low, then your wrists are not constantly touching as you do this...ergo a gap in handles , a gap in your defensive line

I understand your point, but fme 'wrist touching' isn't prominent throughout the knives, especially in the form, and it has never affected my speed. It has it's uses I agree but if you're tying your hands together at the wrist at all times that is impractical IMHO

Train Hard

You too.

And if you ever want to train your lansau and elbows 'with your knife' at dangerously close range then I advise learning how to turn that blade safetly as possible! I will try my best to take a few pics at the weekend to illustrate what I mean but don't hold me to that one!

[chusauli]

I understand your point, but fme 'wrist touching' isn't prominent throughout the knives, especially in the form, and it has never affected my speed. It has it's uses I agree but if you're tying your hands together at the wrist at all times that is impractical IMHO

While you say "wrist touching" above, you should know that the WCK knives are based on "disarming" - that is to take off limbs by lopping them off.

[Graham H]

So if I disagree I haven't sparred with weaponry? Hmmm

You're a f***er for putting words in my mouth Spence!!!!!!!. When did I say weaponry???? I have some traditionally designed WCK knives. They look the part but for fighting the are rubbish!!!! Its because of the tangs you see???? LOL

Sounds like no room for ANY ideas but again, you're Sifu Bayers students and will follow what you have been taught and that's fine. You probably also believe in the fully sharpened blades too. Amything that's practical right?

FFS!!!!!! We are with Sifu Bayer because everything else encountered is pants!!! End of bro!!!

GH

[TenTigers]

btw-the term is quillon, the tang is the potion of the blade that extends through the guard into the handle.

[Liddel]

I had a visit to my studio over the weekend by 2 kung fu cousins that wanted to meet me and exchange some ideas. We covered this subject, and although they had been taught the 'flip' they were not confident in using it. I spent less than ten minutes explaining and demonstrating and they were convinced after 30 seconds! They both have over 30 years experience in the Martial Arts and teach internationally.

Just saying. If you haven't been shown the finer details, don't go saying that it's useless!

I have been shown the finer points and thats exactly why i personally dont flip the knives. Weapons range is a different beast from H2H its much longer range and flipping the knives means you change that drastically IME. Thats just one point i have.

And if you ever want to train your lansau and elbows 'with your knife' at dangerously close range then I advise learning how to turn that blade safetly as possible! I will try my best to take a few pics at the weekend to illustrate what I mean but don't hold me to that one!

Im open minded im interested in your POV.

So under what circumstances and against what type of weaopns are you using the Flip ?

There are many things we can do under a demo setting, but the timing in an actual fight is stepped up action vs reaction is much quicker and when it comes to weapons we have to become very serious about whats practical which is why i ask the above question...

Theres alot of negitivity being thrown around here but im of the school of thought that im sweet with my way and what others do or dont do doesnt change that so im not here to change peoples mind but perhaps you might be able to give me some insight ive over looked spencer...

P.S RE: Tang - (mainland VT systems aside) Anyone whos learnt from a qualified sifu taught by Ip or a senior assistant will have the correct measurements of the VT double swords, there is only one traditional size passed down for specific reasons (some aspects are relative to the user others are set).

Anyone with a different measurement for the 'tang' has thier own way not the VT way passed down.

Drew

[anerlich]

Jeez, can we really go on for this long about using what are largely traditional weapons, tans, quillions and whether we should flip them or not?

WTF does it matter except for LARPing? Sheesh.