Yip Man in Fatsan

[Graham H]

Originally all SLT/SNT has the same opening moves as seen in the Yip Man Biu Jee set. Yip Man changed them to simplify it in HK.

Why would somebody put movements from BJ into SLT when they have completely different ideas between them???

Worrying stuff but then again I know nothing of mainland China WCK so I'll just conclude that it is completely different to YM-WSL Ving Tsun.

GH

[Ozzy Dave]

I used to think that way as well and it makes perfect logical sense if you see SLT, CK and BJ as a linear progression, which may be a flavour from the HK years.

However, if you see it as a circular cycle of progression i.e. each form feeding the other, then having what may be perceived as elements of BJ in SLT makes perfect sense too.

Dave

[LoneTiger108]

However, if you see it as a circular cycle of progression i.e. each form feeding the other, then having what may be perceived as elements of BJ in SLT makes perfect sense too.

Very true and also very undermined by all the 'linear' fanatics.

Truth be told, Wing Chun is both linear and circular and having BJ or CK influences within the opening set of SLT may just be an indication of where that particular Sifu was at when he taught that way imho.

[LoneTiger108]

My point is compare the flavour of Lee Shing's Yip Man forms with Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu and the Futshan group Lun Gai and Gwok Fu, and Lee Shing bears more signatures in common with Chu Shang Tin, Lo Man Kam, WSL, Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Ng Chan, and Koo Sang's WCK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dD6_7mzAQs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gls02U_t2Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-lTYRAieLI

Yes I know what you're implying and thanks for using the ONLY clip of Lee Shing at last!

The way I look at it, Ip Man knew what he was doing in Fatshan and in HK and any differences in his teachings should be viewed as an overall expression of Wing Chun. There is no better way, but all ways should be looked into by the serious student.

Q. Wasn't it in HK that the SLT was first taught at the beginning of a students learning?

[CFT]

Why would somebody put movements from BJ into SLT when they have completely different ideas between them???

Worrying stuff but then again I know nothing of mainland China WCK so I'll just conclude that it is completely different to YM-WSL Ving Tsun.

Read it again Graham. The opening movements if BJ were originally in SNT. Yip Man removed those movements from SNT when he taught in HK. Why? Who knows? Evolution? Redundancy?

[Graham H]

Read it again Graham. The opening movements if BJ were originally in SNT. Yip Man removed those movements from SNT when he taught in HK. Why? Who nows? Evolution? Redundancy?

Can you tell me how you know that because I never knew Yip Man?

Sounds to me (as with a lot of posts on here) that you is pi**ing in the wind!!

GH

[Graham H]

However, if you see it as a circular cycle of progression i.e. each form feeding the other, then having what may be perceived as elements of BJ in SLT makes perfect sense too.

Dave

So where are elements of BJ in SLT then Dave???.......or anybody for that matter.

GH

[CFT]

Can you tell me how you know that because I never knew Yip Man?

Sounds to me (as with a lot of posts on here) that you is pi**ing in the wind!!

His Foshan students perform the SNT that way, as do other mainland lineages. If it is not present in HK YMWCK forms then logic suggests that it was removed. Only the motivation behind the change is unknown.

[Graham H]

His Foshan students perform the SNT that way, as do other mainland lineages. If it is not present in HK YMWCK forms then logic suggests that it was removed. Only the motivaton behind the change is unknown.

Your logical approach has been accepted!!!!

GH

[CFT]

I agree with you that the forms train very different things. So I would not be surprised that YM streamlined his curriculum. I read that YM/WSL made some changes to the choreography of SNT due to WSL's beimo experiences.

[Ozzy Dave]

Well there's the aforementioned elements of the opening sequence after the punch which personally after learning BJ I apply in SLT as well.

Obviously Bil Sao is also introduced in SLT.

Apart from that, for me personally (and I don't claim to be a purist so take this comment as you like) the emphasis on horizontal power generation in BJ adds depth to one's playing of SLT. So this changes your application of force between your feet when performing various techniques. Basically, it makes your ma alive.

Dave

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Ozzy Dave;1077548]
Obviously Bil Sao is also introduced in SLT.

Yup. And chum kiu principles too- in the elbow.

All 3 forms are arranged in quite a logical progression of skill development in good Ip man wing chun.He just didnt teach everything in the public group classes.

joy chaudhuri

[Graham H]

Well there's the aforementioned elements of the opening sequence after the punch which personally after learning BJ I apply in SLT as well.

Obviously Bil Sao is also introduced in SLT.

Apart from that, for me personally (and I don't claim to be a purist so take this comment as you like) the emphasis on horizontal power generation in BJ adds depth to one's playing of SLT. So this changes your application of force between your feet when performing various techniques. Basically, it makes your ma alive.

Dave

Cannot comment on this. Not my thinking!!!

GH

[Graham H]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1077558]

Obviously Bil Sao is also introduced in SLT.

Yup. And chum kiu principles too- in the elbow.

All 3 forms are arranged in quite a logical progression of skill development in good Ip man wing chun.He just didnt teach everything in the public group classes.

joy chaudhuri

Biu Sau is introduced in SLT but the thinking of Biu Sau in Bil Jee is different. SLT lays foundations. Its not full of fighting applications in my system. Its the ABC. We don't learn to make words and sentences until later (to quote WSL).

Explain

in the elbow

please.

GH

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1077567][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1077558]

Biu Sau is introduced in SLT but the thinking of Biu Sau in Bil Jee is different. SLT lays foundations. Its not full of fighting applications in my system. Its the ABC. We don't learn to make words and sentences until later (to quote WSL).

Explain please.
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IMO it depends on who is paying how much attention to what.

Less to do with "thinking"- more to with layer by layer skill development. When the slt biu is well learned and done- it makes way for the other biu motions later on.

Chum kiu has several possible meanings- a key meaning is "sinking". in the slt jam sao one can learn how to sink the elbow properly- of course there are other motions to teach the sinking.

joy chaudhuri