Yip Man in Fatsan

[Graham H]

Less to do with "thinking"- more to with layer by layer skill development. When the slt biu is well learned and done- it makes way for the other biu motions later on.

I agree. All actions in SLT are for this.

Chum kiu has several possible meanings- a key meaning is "sinking". in the slt jam sao one can learn how to sink the elbow properly- of course there are other motions to teach the sinking.

The Jum Sau action teaches us to punch whilst using the inside of the elbow to displace an obstruction (should it be there) when we attack. So Jum Sau is a punch action. Its not a block in my system!!

The idea of Chum Kiu being a form that teaches you how to sink arm bridges or drop elbows is nonsense but I guess you have to meet the right people in order to offer a better way of thinking.

Chum Kiu teaches one to fight in the most simple, efficient and direct way.

No arm on arm BS!!!

GH

[LoneTiger108]

I will repeat for everyone:

Q. Wasn't it in HK that the SLT was first taught at the beginning of a students learning?

If we can not confirm this, how can anyone tell me why Ip Man changed anything at all? The evidence suggests changes happened but that's all. Doesn't anyone here know/understand what the mainland guys are doing with their opening set?? Names of movements etc?

Would be good to research imho.

[Graham H]

I will repeat for everyone:

Q. Wasn't it in HK that the SLT was first taught at the beginning of a students learning?

If we can not confirm this, how can anyone tell me why Ip Man changed anything at all? The evidence suggests changes happened but that's all. Doesn't anyone here know/understand what the mainland guys are doing with their opening set?? Names of movements etc?

Would be good to research imho.

Are you saying that on the mainland SLT is not taught at the beginning??

[T.D.O]

I've seen a style that does'nt teach the forums but teach's "points" 22 or 24 point systems. Said to be made by dr leung jan after he retired and went home.


Don't know what this has do with the rest of the thread though....

[chusauli]

Glad Chee was able to clear up a lot.

Its not that BJ motions are in SNT, its that the Bai Jee/Tiu Sao movements have been removed out of Yip Man SNT in HK.

[LoneTiger108]

Are you saying that on the mainland SLT is not taught at the beginning??

I'm asking if anyone knows?

Are I've seen a style that does'nt teach the forums but teach's "points" 22 or 24 point systems. Said to be made by dr leung jan after he retired and went home.

That would be the Fung Families point system from Kulo. There are some guys on here that can offer so much more on that subject than I can.

Don't know what this has do with the rest of the thread though....

You will get used to thread going off at tangents, but it is still relevant I think.

How does the Fatshan Wing Chun compare to Kulo Wing Chun? Especially since the Kulo teachings were before Ip Man and his Fatshan days...

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1077571]I agree. All actions in SLT are for this.



The Jum Sau action teaches us to punch whilst using the inside of the elbow to displace an obstruction (should it be there) when we attack. So Jum Sau is a punch action. Its not a block in my system!!

((Jum sao can have many uses-punch included))

The idea of Chum Kiu being a form that teaches you how to sink arm bridges or drop elbows is nonsense but I guess you have to meet the right people in order to offer a better way of thinking.

((Right people wow! Thanks . but no thanks. Given the tones used chum kiu can have several meanings))

Chum Kiu teaches one to fight in the most simple, efficient and direct way.

((Sure- my chum kiu too))

No arm on arm BS!!!

((some sort of a knee jerk reaction? How did arm on arm creep into this??))joy chaudhuri

[Graham H]

Its not that BJ motions are in SNT, its that the Bai Jee/Tiu Sao movements have been removed out of Yip Man SNT in HK.

Robert

So what were these actions used for in mainland China SLT and why did Yip man remove them??

GH

[Graham H]

Joy

Jum sao can have many uses-punch included

Some others???

Right people wow! Thanks . but no thanks. Given the tones used chum kiu can have several meanings

What are the other meanings??

some sort of a knee jerk reaction? How did arm on arm creep into this??

....because unfortunately thats what most of the WCK seem to think from my experience...........that CK is for making arm contact and sinking arm bridges.

GH

[CFT]

Graham, if you're interested I've found some vids of Lun Gai performing his sets.

This looks like all the sets: SNT, CK, BJ, knives, pole. Some drills and apps. in between the empty hand and weapon forms.
http://www.56.com/u74/v_NDgwODQ2NzE.html

Here are some individual form clips:

Chum Kiu: http://www.56.com/u37/v_NDQ5MTE1MzA.html
Biu Jee: http://www.56.com/u41/v_NDQ5MTE2MjI.html

Just bear in mind he is an old man. There are some other clips on youtube.

[Graham H]

Graham, if you're interested I've found some vids of Lun Gai performing his sets.

This looks like all the sets: SNT, CK, BJ, knives, pole. Some drills and apps. in between the empty hand and weapon forms.
http://www.56.com/u74/v_NDgwODQ2NzE.html

Here are some individual form clips:

Chum Kiu: http://www.56.com/u37/v_NDQ5MTE1MzA.html
Biu Jee: http://www.56.com/u41/v_NDQ5MTE2MjI.html

Just bear in mind he is an old man. There are some other clips on youtube.

Thanks Chee. I’ll have a look tonight. The age factor will be taken into consideration LOL. Just a shame more people don’t do that like when they study videos of Yip Man just before he died and basing there movements and ideas on it!!! On that note the majority of the videos of WSL were filmed in his later years when he was past his physical prime. They should be viewed in fondness of a great Ving Tsun teacher and man and not for VT reference.

GH

[LoneTiger108]

On that note the majority of the videos of WSL were filmed in his later years when he was past his physical prime. They should be viewed in fondness of a great Ving Tsun teacher and man and not for VT reference.

I disagree. If WSL 'lost his way' in his later years and couldn't even perform the 'basic' forms then I would agree with you. But he could. Ip Man could and Lee Shing could too, and these clips they made should be used as a point of reference for their own students as their characters are all evident.

I agree that they shouldn't be used to 'hold students back', as the level pitched was only ever of a basic image, but you already know this. Others who have only ever copied their forms from DVDs and such only add to the problem and it's this McDojo/JKD/MMA approach phenomenom which has affected Wing Chun as a whole because people just take a snap-shot away and start to teach it.

[Graham H]

I disagree. If WSL 'lost his way' in his later years and couldn't even perform the 'basic' forms then I would agree with you. But he could. Ip Man could and Lee Shing could too, and these clips they made should be used as a point of reference for their own students as their characters are all evident.

I agree that they shouldn't be used to 'hold students back', as the level pitched was only ever of a basic image, but you already know this. Others who have only ever copied their forms from DVDs and such only add to the problem and it's this McDojo/JKD/MMA approach phenomenom which has affected Wing Chun as a whole because people just take a snap-shot away and start to teach it.

Well I disagree with you!!!! You’re putting words in my mouth as well. When did I say he lost his way or couldn’t even perform the forms correctly?? What I was implying is that in his later years with age and fitness (illness in Yip Man’s terms) being a factor then movement is effected which I can clearly see but you obviously cannot. I don’t use the videos of WSL or Yip Man for reference. That would be ridiculous!!! Tut tut tut!!

[LoneTiger108]

I don’t use the videos of WSL or Yip Man for reference. That would be ridiculous!!! Tut tut tut!!

Okay. Let me be clearer.

Do you repeat sets in the same order as they do? Same amount of techs/reps? Similar stance/horse? Same opening sets?

If so, you are using them as a reference and this is all I mean. I'm not suggesting you copy their movements, especially if you know them to be a bit 'stiff'! And FWIW when you get to a ripe old age and minimise your effort maybe then you will see why their forms were done in such a way?

As an example of the reps thing, Lee Shings Biu Jee is very different in one respect as he repeats certain techs 5 times instead of 3 (like everyone else does) and he also has the sets in a different order than most. I hold onto that info as a reference and remember what my Sifu said about the why's etc and still would teach in 5's today because of that knowledge. I do not copy his 'look' though and I think that is also where you're coming from, which is something we then have in common!

These are also things I'd like to cross reference with the Fatshan era students, so maybe someone can have an input...

[chusauli]

Robert

So what were these actions used for in mainland China SLT and why did Yip man remove them??

GH

Glad Chee could come up with the video. Very interesting. I've seen demos by students of Derek Frearson, and by Mark Hobbs himself.

Futshan Yip Man WCK looks like YKS, Yiu Choi, Pan Nam and others.