View Poll Results: Wing Chun - System or Style?

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  • System

    12 80.00%
  • Style

    0 0%
  • Bit of both

    3 20.00%
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Thread: Wing Chun System or Style?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    Both of the quotes above seem to display a certain rigidity of outlook that I find misguided. Do you really think that there is "one true system" out there, perhaps an "original" or "authentic" version that has been diluted and distorted over the generations? That is the kind of dogmatic thinking often associated with religious cults. It's natural to try to seek the most efficient system possible, but to believe that there can only be one, true way, unchanging and eternal? Well, that sounds far fetched to me.
    Far fetched it may be, but I have to ask you this: Do you really believe that 'if' there is a system to Wing Chun, a formula if you like, that Ip Man passed it to all of his students?

    And do you think for one moment that this said system would never have been written down at all?

    This is what I mean by system. It's simple, direct and totally makes sense to me. If you have only learnt Ip Mans Wing Chun from 'memory' have you really got the system? Or are you practising Ip Mans 'style' interpreted by whoever you learnt from? That's a pretty 'open book' which I see often, but left unchecked for so many years only causes stagnation and confusion fme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    I already weighed in on the original question about "style" vs. "system". I firmly believe that WC is essentially a system. Each technique or movement should be part of an integrated "clockwork" that functions as efficiently as a well oiled machine.
    So please explain this 'clockwork' machine in terms that don't rely on us knowing about 'cars'. This is all I'm asking from anyone here.

    Tell me what your 'system' is and how that reflects your English explanation. But be warned, if all you're going to do is list the forms, sandbag, wooden man, pole and knives then you're missing my point! I KNOW that these areas of training make our system a whole, but exactly what is the Wing Chun system itself?

    I have already tried to describe how I have been taught and how I coach. Being a student from a direct descendant of Lee Shing, I have a certain 'cultural' element to my training that many criticize and even disagree with comlpletely! I group my practise into areas/modules like Form, Equipment, Weaponry and Interaction as I feel this helps to promote a 'system'.

    Is it the same as Ip Mans personal 'style' or approach to teaching??

    Or is it a different animal altogether?

    So, what is The Wing Chun System exactly??

    Everyone talks about it but I have not seen much evidence of it's existence yet, especially here within this forum!
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  2. #32
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    Spencer, there was a thread on here the other day where two seemingly intelligent posters went on for several pages arguing over whether the Chinese term "dao" (as in bart cham dao) should translated into English as "knife"or also as "sword". Another thread went on for pages debating wheteher or not it was ever permissable to "flip" and invert the bart cham dao back along the fore-arm. If presumably well informed, experienced Sifus can't agree over such simple topics, it would be really absurd for me, with my limited comprehension, to further expound upon the systemic nature of Wing Chun on this forum. Maybe someone else would care to give it a try. Sorry. --Steve
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Far fetched it may be, but I have to ask you this: Do you really believe that 'if' there is a system to Wing Chun, a formula if you like, that Ip Man passed it to all of his students?
    Who cares if he did or didn't? We all just have to make do with what we've got and do our thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108
    Is it the same as Ip Mans personal 'style' or approach to teaching??

    Or is it a different animal altogether?

    So, what is The Wing Chun System exactly??

    Everyone talks about it but I have not seen much evidence of it's existence yet, especially here within this forum!
    Of course what he passed down was his personal 'style' of the teaching. WSL passed down his. Moy Yat his. They all gave it their own personal flavour/culture/experience. What I *really* wonder about is when WSL/Ip Man/Moy Yat/Lee Shing/etc realized that it was about THEM and why that part of Kung-Fu has been lost. We're all just clones nowadays, trying to duplicate the past-masters in hopes that we'll be able to say we have the real kung-fu of then - instead of doing the kung-fu of now.

    You haven't seen much evidence of Wing Chun in existence? I don't understand. It's everywhere...all sorts of interpretations all across the globe.
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    We all just have to make do with what we've got and do our thing.
    Why is that?

    And why is it that this poll suggests the majority thinks Wing Chun is a System, but nobody can tell me exactly what that means or what the system 'is'?

    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    What I *really* wonder about is when WSL/Ip Man/Moy Yat/Lee Shing/etc realized that it was about THEM and why that part of Kung-Fu has been lost. We're all just clones nowadays, trying to duplicate the past-masters in hopes that we'll be able to say we have the real kung-fu of then - instead of doing the kung-fu of now.
    This is exactly my point. Do you think that the Sifus you mentioned actually 'knew' what you suggest? That all they were doing was promoting themselves?

    FWIW Lee Shing did know this from what I have been told and it was one of his reasons for not teaching publically and not charging fees. He felt he was just representing Ip Man and his own opinions and 'flavours' were not taught until much later. He propogated Ip Mans Wing Chun knowing that Wing Chun is Wing Chun without Ip Man (if that makes any sense!) because he had curriculums and a 'system' he taught. His respect for Ip Man was huge as he had first hand experience of his personal methods too.

    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    You haven't seen much evidence of Wing Chun in existence? I don't understand. It's everywhere...all sorts of interpretations all across the globe.
    I understand what you mean, but I'm referring directly to the system itself. The written references to exactly what Wing Chun 'is'. This is why I feel that everyone has their own independent views on 'what a bong sau is' etc because they haven't been taught the system, they've been taught someones own idea on what they think the system is!

    Until that issue is cleared, especially for Ip Family practitioners, we will always be in a bit of a mess. And this mess has grown over forty years being in the West already so I also see the frustration in many elder practitioners I have met.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    If presumably well informed, experienced Sifus can't agree over such simple topics, it would be really absurd for me, with my limited comprehension, to further expound upon the systemic nature of Wing Chun on this forum. Maybe someone else would care to give it a try. Sorry. --Steve
    No problem Steve. I feel your pain! I'm actually not looking for 'opinions' on what they think the system is, I'm looking for people who 'have it' and I guess I may be waiting for much longer than I anticipated
    Last edited by LoneTiger108; 03-17-2011 at 06:26 AM.
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  5. #35
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    And why is it that this poll suggests the majority thinks Wing Chun is a System, but nobody can tell me exactly what that means or what the system 'is'?
    We could tell you. We just don't want to tell you because getting browbeaten by a junior on a fairly inconsequential question is annoying.

    Do you really believe that 'if' there is a system to Wing Chun, a formula if you like, that Ip Man passed it to all of his students?
    I don't care either way, it's ancient history, but if he did pass it down he did a very patchy and inconsistent job.
    Last edited by anerlich; 03-17-2011 at 01:53 PM.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    We could tell you. We just don't want to tell you because getting browbeaten by a junior on a fairly inconsequential question is annoying.
    Nice attitude to have considering you think that 1. You're my elder and 2. Questioning exactly what the system is is 'inconsequential'.

    Funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    I don't care either way, it's ancient history, but if he did pass it down he did a very patchy and inconsistent job.
    Okay. Each to their own
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  7. #37
    "And why is it that this poll suggests the majority thinks Wing Chun is a System, but nobody can tell me exactly what that means or what the system 'is'?"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think that you expect too much from a chat list. The question deserves a systematic answer- not really possible on a chat list where attention spans are often short and sarcasm abounds

    I can't speak for anyone but myself.Wing chun to me is both a system and an art. Bifurcation of science versus art misses the mark..Ip man's wing chun is quite deep..but as we know he taught unevenly-but that does not mean that he didn't know or that he always taught badly.

    After all these years(since 1976) my fascination with the depth of the art continues-not based on dogma or blind faith or mechanical imitation.

    As a system--it is not clf, hung gar, boxing or wrestling- it is about control- yourself and your opponent(s) or situation or challenge-it has it's approach to stance, balance, stability and motion, coordination of upper, middle and lower body , handwork and footwork, power, timing,
    distance and target control, focus,strategy and tactics. As an art-it points towards proper feeling,spontaneity, creativity, connection with nature, understanding the deliverances of the senses, training the senses,proper breathing and self control.

    But opinions can vary...understandable ona chat list.No worries. Chat lists are not serious things.Ok for listening and gabbing.


    Gotta go to get some work done.
    joy chaudhuri

  8. #38
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    Thanks for your reply Joy. This is the part that interests me...

    "it has it's approach to stance, balance, stability and motion... etc"

    In effect, what is 'it's approach' then?

    I understand that you feel that the system itself is deep, but how do you understand that? What has shown you that it is?

    I personally have had this chat previously through other threads, but still I have found no solid answers to a very simple question. Some lead the way for a sound answer but just don't get there imho.

    A great article in KFM this month "The Primary Fighting Techs of Any Style" where it talks of four 'skills' that are universal to all Martial Arts: Throwing, Kicking, Controlling and Striking. And from what you're saying Wing Chun has 'it's own' approach to this, which I presume you refer to as The System (?)

    This is not the System I am thinking about. I'm thinking about what makes Wing Chun Wing Chun y'know? What is unique about the System? How is a System learnt?

    Food for thought and I'm still open to suggestions...
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Thanks for your reply Joy. This is the part that interests me...

    "it has it's approach to stance, balance, stability and motion... etc"

    In effect, what is 'it's approach' then?

    (((Can't selectively cherry pick bits and pieces- if it's a "system". Understanding and being aware of the dynamics of gravity in every aspect of ygkym and slt is a start. YGKYM and slt is part of WC and not clf , karate etc))

    I understand that you feel that the system itself is deep, but how do you understand that? What has shown you that it is?
    ((proper practice and experience and experimentation..not just solo practice))

    I personally have had this chat previously through other threads, but still I have found no solid answers to a very simple question. Some lead the way for a sound answer but just don't get there imho.

    ((I don't follow you-your perception is your own))

    A great article in KFM this month "The Primary Fighting Techs of Any Style" where it talks of four 'skills' that are universal to all Martial Arts: Throwing, Kicking, Controlling and Striking. And from what you're saying Wing Chun has 'it's own' approach to this, which I presume you refer to as The System (?)

    ((Nope. Of course as I have often pointed out wc is not the only way to self defense. I don't easily cater to someone's definition of "universalism"..you often end up with the lowest common denominator of things..
    Ip man's system is really outstanding. Even getting bits and parts of it can be informative.The problem is that very very few people received sustained, paid long term instruction from him..
    picnics and dim sum and episodic and short term visits don't count. Any deep art requires sustained attention to good teaching and practice.))

    This is not the System I am thinking about. I'm thinking about what makes Wing Chun Wing Chun y'know? What is unique about the System? How is a System learnt?

    ((Sustained good teaching, practice, learning and experience.))

    Food for thought and I'm still open to suggestions...
    ((I get into trouble from time to time here but I am not running for election for the snake and crane catcher. Open minded?You say so. But many of your posts are primarily efforts to make the world remember Lee Shing. Yik Kam for Hendrik etc. Some others just have chest beating
    or advertising. Now...I duck....))

    joy chaudhuri

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    This is not the System I am thinking about. I'm thinking about what makes Wing Chun Wing Chun y'know? What is unique about the System? How is a System learnt?

    Food for thought and I'm still open to suggestions...
    First problem: I can only give you my viewpoint/opinion/outlook/whatever.

    Second problem: If this viewpoint doesn't match up with what you feel (not you as in YOU, but in everyone who wants Wing Chun to be what THEY want it to be), it will be discounted.

    Ergo, I'm taking my Wing Chun and running with it in the direction I want to see it go.
    Last edited by couch; 03-18-2011 at 12:30 PM.
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post

    This is exactly my point. Do you think that the Sifus you mentioned actually 'knew' what you suggest? That all they were doing was promoting themselves?

    I understand what you mean, but I'm referring directly to the system itself. The written references to exactly what Wing Chun 'is'. This is why I feel that everyone has their own independent views on 'what a bong sau is' etc because they haven't been taught the system, they've been taught someones own idea on what they think the system is!
    We can't have it any other way.

    Nor should it be any other way.

    This is the essence of Kung-Fu: self-expression.
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  12. #42
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    "And why is it that this poll suggests the majority thinks Wing Chun is a System, but nobody can tell me exactly what that means or what the system 'is'?"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think that you expect too much from a chat list. The question deserves a systematic answer- not really possible on a chat list where attention spans are often short and sarcasm abounds

    I can't speak for anyone but myself.Wing chun to me is both a system and an art. Bifurcation of science versus art misses the mark..Ip man's wing chun is quite deep..but as we know he taught unevenly-but that does not mean that he didn't know or that he always taught badly.

    After all these years(since 1976) my fascination with the depth of the art continues-not based on dogma or blind faith or mechanical imitation...

    But opinions can vary...understandable ona chat list.No worries. Chat lists are not serious things. Ok for listening and gabbing .

    joy chaudhuri
    Actually, this is a serious answer... and a very good one. Thanks Joy. --Steve
    "No contaban con mi astucia!" --el Chapulin Colorado

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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Why is that?

    And why is it that this poll suggests the majority thinks Wing Chun is a System, but nobody can tell me exactly what that means or what the system 'is'?

    ...I'm referring directly to the system itself. The written references to exactly what Wing Chun 'is'.
    Spencer, the problem is that you are looking for one specific system... that is one "right way" to do things, with all other interpretations being considered "erroneous". I suggest you read Joy's response carefully. Wing Chun is both science and art. As a science, Wing Chun is logical and systemic.... and evolving! Science never reaches perfection nor stands still. And Wing Chun as art will be interpreted differently by each practitioner, just as a musical score, even if carefully written and annotated by the composer, will be interpreted differently by the musician that performs it.

    Here's another way to look at it. When you ask those of us who practice a branch of Yip Man's WC to provide you with "the written system" you remind me of a story a rabbi once told me about the great Jewish scholar Hillel, who lived shortly before Jesus. As the story goes, Hillel was once confronted by a couple of troublesome, fault finding rabbis looking to catch him up. They began by asking him to summarize Torah "while standing on one foot" (i.e. "in a few words"). According to tradition, he responded by saying, "Be Loving to your neighbor as you would be to yourself, the rest is all just details".

    Now you are asking us to summarize the varying systems (note the use of the plural) of Yip Man's WC "while standing on one foot". I'm no Hillel, but my response would be:

    "Spring forward, Stick with what comes, Follow as it retreats, and thrust forward when the way is free". The rest is all just details.

    Good luck in your further studies. --Steve
    Last edited by Grumblegeezer; 03-18-2011 at 01:26 PM.
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