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Thread: bruce lee gung fu forms

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siu Lum Fighter View Post
    I believe this to be slightly inaccurate. Shui Hon Sang was an older classmate of Grandmaster Ma Gim Fung. The whole reason Bruce went to Shui was because he was impressed with Wong Jack Man's abilities after his match with him in 1964 and he wanted to learn some of Wong's style (Bak Siu Lum and Bak Siu Lum Lo Han). Of course, this was the match that caused him to renounce Wing Chun which, despite what many would have you believe, indicates that Bruce didn't win that fight. After this match and before he began work on The Green Hornet, Bruce went back to Hong Kong a couple of times in 1965. At some point he wrote Wong Jack Man's teacher, Ma Gim Fung, and requested lessons. Ma was an especially gifted master and had taught Wong Sifu his BSL Lo Han that had been passed down from Ku Yu Cheung. Ma turned him away, but Bruce managed to convince Shui Hon Sang to teach him. Shui was an older classmate of Ma's and during Bruce's time in Hong Kong in 1965 Shui taught him Gung Li Chuan and Jie Chuan.
    I am sorry, but do you have any source for that information? Because that my friend is revisionist history. I can quote you two different INTERVIEWS with Shiu Hon Sang himself from the 1970s which completely go against the things you claim.
    First of all, Lee trained with Shiu Hon Sang in 1958 and 1959. This is confirmed by Hawkins Cheung and Shiu Hon Sang himself. What they trained in is also confirmed by those two people.

    The fight with Wong Jack Man was indeed in 1964-1965ish at the Oakland school. (James Lee was present). The fight most certainly rattled Lee.
    As far as that it was that fight that "caused him to renounce Wing Chun" , then why in 1965 in Hong Kong did he visit with Master Yip Man several times, and later tried to convince Yip Man to film the Wing Chun forms so he could show him to his American students?
    Wing Chun tactics and techniques continue to be a part of Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do training for many years and shows up in his own personal training regiment still in 1968. Dan Inosanto continues to teach Wing Chun techniques in the Jeet Kune Do "backyard group" up until Lee's death. Inosanto was teaching what Lee told him too.

    Shiu Hon Sang did not teach Lee those forms in 1965, he already knew them in 1958-1959. How else was he performing parts of them at the 1964 Ed Parker Longbeach Karate tournaments?

    If you want I can provide sources for all of my claims. Can you do the same?

  2. #17
    Greetings,

    Those photos are from a set that shows Lee going through a traditional phase; yet, no one has ever come forth and state where that sequence comes from. There exists the strong possibility that he created that sequence from his knowledge base.

    mickey

  3. #18
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    TopCrusader:

    Perhaps you could point me to the specific interviews with Shiu where he says this. I read what Hawkins said, but I'm still skeptical that info. is accurate. If Bruce did learn those forms in the late 50's then it was because Shiu was friends with Bruce's father, Lee Hoi Chuen. Being a traditionalist, Shiu wouldn't have just started teaching Bruce Lee without a letter of introduction from Yip Man. Masters of different styles usually didn't just teach students of other masters. This was why, as far as I knew, Bruce learned all the other stuff he knew from his friends growing up. The Lacey brothers taught him some Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut in this way.
    Last edited by Siu Lum Fighter; 03-03-2011 at 07:57 PM.
    The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)

  4. #19
    looks like hes doing basic blocks and 3 photos are just finger jabs

    if bruce lee knew any real chinese martial art at all he wouldnt have named his style skeet coon do.
    this is my mom she is very strong

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    looks like hes doing basic blocks and 3 photos are just finger jabs

    if bruce lee knew any real chinese martial art at all he wouldnt have named his style skeet coon do.
    What?

    Skeet Skeet Skeet Skeet Skeet
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    This is not a veiled request for compliments

    The short story is I did 325# for one set of 1 rep.

    1) Does this sound gifted, or just lucky?

  6. #21
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    guys-it's not a form, it's just random poses. Bruce Lee was always striking poses.
    The only thing close to a form you see him do was that screen test-which for the most part looked thrown together from other sets.
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  7. #22
    i have many pics of bruce lee doing forms but i dont know the names of this form
    i will post here this pics

  8. #23
    i think charlie sheen is much more powerful than bruce lee. he can destroy him easily with tigerblood power.
    this is my mom she is very strong

  9. #24
    some of this





  10. #25
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    Is that the Thriller dance?
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    This is not a veiled request for compliments

    The short story is I did 325# for one set of 1 rep.

    1) Does this sound gifted, or just lucky?

  11. #26
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    Siu Lum Fighter:
    I do not have the interviews right in front of me, but will post the names and where they came from when I find the magazines.

    Qwert:
    All of those pictures have me stumped, but I am not a "Kung fu genius" that can recognize poses. However, the picture of him in his house (taken in 1963) I believe is a pose from Eagle Claw?
    But the other pictures will be very hard to verify as they are mostly generic kung fu poses.

  12. #27
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    Well, if I see that Shiu Hon Sang actually said that, then I'll believe it, but there are several reasons why I can't automatically believe that Bruce learned from him in 1959:

    According to some sources as well as Dr. William Upton-Knittle, who was the chief instructor of martial arts at Loyola University and taught Bruce Lee when he lived in Culver City, Bruce convinced Shiu Sifu after Ma Ching Fung turned him down. This was also after Bruce tried convincing Yip Man to let him film him doing Wing Chun (Yip Man didn't like that). If Shiu knew Bruce wasn't a student of Yip Man's anymore and that he tried to seek instruction from Ma, then I could see him giving him lessons. TCMA sifus in Hong Kong don't teach students of other sifus. This would only happen if the student wanted to start all over with another teacher and even then it would be touchy.

    Hawkins Cheung may not have been given accurate information. He even admitted that Bruce and him always kept secrets from each other. They were always competing and they'd hold back information from one another about how they learned a particular technique. Usually this was because they didn't want the other guy to go to the same source.

    If Bruce did learn from Shiu at that time then it was because his dad and Shiu were friends. Even then it would have had to have been in secret because if Yip Man had found out Bruce would very likely have been kicked out of his school. He was almost kicked out without being guilty of such an infraction.
    Last edited by Siu Lum Fighter; 03-13-2011 at 01:11 AM.
    The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)

  13. #28
    this is my mom she is very strong

  14. #29
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    Ok, lets get started!

    First of all, what would really help this whole thing is to figure out a specific time the BL vs WJM fight took place. I am not sure I have ever read a consistent time given. Some say late 1964, some say 1965. What is true is that the fight took place in Oakland with James Lee and Linda present. Why does this matter? A claim is that after the fight, BL sought out video of Wong Jack Man performing a form, which he later would mimic in Enter the Dragon, etc:

    "There is a 8mm film of Bruce Lee doing Bei Shaolin #5 or attempting to perform BSL#5. He paid someone to film Wong Jack Man who was demonstrating BSL#5 and then BL learned from that film. Bruce Lee then had himself filmed doing the same set but from what I understand the quality was obviously not the same." SOURCE

    Only problem is, Lee has been filmed performing a section of this form (a set of kicking maneuvers found in many Northern arts) at the Ed Parker Long Beach Tournament in August of 1964. By all accounts (even from the source above, which states the fight took place in "Late winter 1964") Lee knew this kicking routine before his WJM fight, making the above claim that he learned it from a film of WJM impossible.

    Now let us clear up what Hawkins Cheung knew and didnt know:

    "To make money on the side, he said he would teach wing chun. I replied that he didn't have much to teach at that time; we had both only learned up to the second wing chun form, chum kiu, and 40 movements on the dummy. We had a friend whom we called "Uncle Shiu" (Shiu Hon Sang), who taught northern styles of gung-fu. Bruce thought it would be a good idea to learn some of the more pretty, showy styles before he left. Bruce learned northern style for showmanship. In the late 195Os, Bruce had already planned to hide his art. Many were looking for the showmanship, not the killer. Bruce would give them what they wanted.
    We went to Uncle Shin's gung-fu club at seven every morning. We began to learn lam ad (a basic northern style gung-fu set). I hated master Shin's dog, and his dog hated me equally, as he would bark at me every time I visited. Finally, the early mornings and the loud dog made me drop out. Bruce continued for two months more and learned gung lik kuen (training power fist set), bung bo kuen (a basic praying mantis set), and jeet kuen (quick fist), all northern style sets." - Hawkins Cheung. Source: Bruce Lee's Hong Kong Years: By Hawkins Cheung, as told to Robert Chu, in "Inside Kung-Fu" November 1991

    "After Bruce left Hong Kong, I went to Australia to attend college. We still stayed in touch by writing to each other. He told me he was working part time at Ruby Chow's restaurant in Seattle and teaching a few students Wing Chun as well as some of Uncle Shiu's northern style kung-fu high kicks. He wrote that he loved wing chun very much and he wanted to go back to Hong Kong to learn the rest of the system." - Hawkins Cheung. Source: "Bruce Lee Discovers Jeet Kune Do" By Hawkins Cheung, as told to Robert Chu First published in Inside Kung-Fu 91/12

    I believe both of the articles can be read on Hawkins Cheung's website.

    Now on to Shiu Hon Sang. One source (in English) I have is from Real Kung Fu Magazine. Article name is "The 1/5 Instructor of Bruce Lee"
    The article is mostly a biography on Shiu Hon Sang, but talks briefly about his relation with BL as well:
    "Though Shiu did teach Bruce Lee, but he never did refer himself as Bruce lee’s instructor. He was just Fourth Uncle to Bruce."
    Picture captions:
    "Shek Kin and Shiu Hon Sang are both graduates from the kung fu classes operated by the Chin Woo associations, and are both experts in Northern Style Kung Fu. Shek and Shiu are close friends of Lee Hoi Chuen, the father of Bruce Lee"

    "Shiu Hon Sang demonstrates a chieh chuan technique. Chieh Chuan has the same pronunciation in Chinese as Jeet Kune, the unique martial art of Bruce Lee. From here it can be imagined that apart from the Wing Tsun techniques, the forms of BL’s JKD also contain essence of the principles of Chieh Chuan"

    The other Shiu Hon Sang article I own is from the magazine/book "Bruce Lee: His Unknowns in Martial Arts Learning" printed by the Bruce Lee JKD club Hong Kong (1977) a few paragraphs:

    "The kung-lik-kune was not long, about ten patterns and Bruce was quick in learning, so he possessed it after only three lessons. Sifu Siu stressed, “To say that ‘he possessed it’ doesn’t mean that he had the model only, but his actions were absolutely accurate and up to the standard.”
    Later, he continued to request Sifu Siu to teach him some advanced boxing. It was 1958 when the movie series “Wong Fei Hung” was very popular, Sifu Siu had a lot of work to do. He was one of the actors and at the same time a martial arts director. He had so little time that he had to refuse Bruce’s request and had stopped teaching kung fu for a time."

    "Two months before Bruce went to the US, he especially went to visit Sifu Siu. To Sifu Siu, he solemnly and clearly stated, “Uncle Siu, I’m about to leave Hong Kong, I’m serious! First, I don’t feel that wing chun kune is bad, but I want to increase my knowledge and learn the strong points of different kinds of kung fu. Moreover, I’m about to leave Hong Kong to the US. Over there teachers of kung fu are few, so I hope to learn some more so that I can practice by myself.”

    Sifu Siu went on, “After Bruce had learned Wing Chun kune, he came to ask me to teach him some kung fu. I chose to teach him the second set of boxing form in the basic boxing forms of Ching-Wu school – Kung-lik Kune. I chose this because it is easier to learn since it is short. Later, he wanted to learn some more Chinese northern kung fu. He came to find me again. So I taught him some fundamental training methods in Chinese Northern Kung fu. Chinese northern kung fu is more well developed in the use of kicks. This influenced Bruce’s kicks as seen in his movies. He had made some changes because he wanted to achieve some artistic color. Moreover, Chinese Northern kung fu has wider actions. It is more more beautiful in applying these actions on the screen. In short, Bruce’s kung fu was based on wing chun kune first and was followed by the influence of my northern boxing.”
    “Later, I taught him a set of jumping step boxing (Beng Bu Quan).” After a stop, Sifu Siu continued, “This kind of boxing is a basic boxing form of northern mantis kung fu. Its characteristics are jumps, skills, swift movements and the circular horizontal kicks. But Bruce was very smart. He learned it in six or seven lectures. So I taught him a set of Git-kune, the fourth set of the basic boxing forms of Ching-Wu school. Bruce had special interest in this boxing form. He liked it. He spent plenty of time in studying and analyzing this boxing form.”

    “Bruce not only learned the above boxing forms, but I also taught him 2 sets of weapon forms. One of them was Ba-qua-dau, it uses the broad sword; the other was five tiger spear. However, he aimed not at weapons. Weapons can only be used in performing, and not in today’s society, so he concentrated on boxing.”

    “Bruce and I were intimate friends. I’m his uncle. I tried my best to explain the meaning of the Ching-wu school to him. Later, Bruce absorbed foreign martial arts, reformed it and formed his own unique school of martial arts. But he did not forget his masters. In 1965, when he came back to Hong Kong accompanied by his wife, he often came to visit me and have a chat. He had also remembered the boxing forms that I had taught him and gave us a demonstration. He not only made no mistake in his performance, but he was very acquainted with it. In 1967, he came back again. Because he had to perform on TVB, he practiced in my institute and his opponent was Unicorn.” (his close friend, Unicorn Chan)

    Ok, there you have it! There is much more Shiu Hon Sang says in those articles, but that is some important parts.

    So, where do we stand now? Do we believe Shiu Hon Sang or "others" like those referenced in the online article? No disrespect, but the two stories do not match and thus somebody is wrong. By the way, you say you (Siu Lum Fighter) are a former student of Dr. Knittle. He mentions Bruce Lee was his student while he lived in Culver City. Any specifics on that?

  15. #30
    It always amuses me how many people beat up BL or taught him. Ofcourse they all came forwards after his death

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