The Risk of the XingYi Beng Chuan Footwork

[YouKnowWho]

The half step XingYi Beng Chuan is famous but the footwork may have some risk involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvAfiEBPegA

When you step in with your leading leg, your opponent can:

- kick your chest, belly, knee,
- sweep your leading leg,
- scoop your leading leg,
- crack your punching elbow,

IMO, to step in with your leading leg first is just like to throw a cross without a jab first, you may over commit and expose yourself when the timing is not quite right. It may be better to move your back leg behind your front leg first. This way since the distance between you and your opponent hasn't change, you can withdraw your back leg if needed. Also when you move your back leg first to make your back leg to touch your front leg, you can advance and withdraw whatever that you like. When you move your leading leg first, your stance may be too wide to recover from any mistake.

What's your opinion on this kind of footwork?

[GeneChing]

If you want to avoid risk, avoid combat. There is no such thing as a risk-free technique.

This reminds me of your The risk of the TCMA hammer fist thread.

[bawang]

the footwork training of longfist involves three stages. first stage is lunge(from left gongbu to right gongbu etc) . second stange is half step. third stage is shuffle stepping in fighting stance.

the half step is just for training. use common sense ah

[Lucas]

to me the greatest risk would be having such a narrow base when the rear leg is drawn forward to meet he lead. granted its a moment in time and a training process, and to drive more power into a strike, so hopefully you are not exposed as you follow through and are 'successful', however (taken as a snapshot in time) with such a narrow base you can be taken down at will.

although no one would retain that position for more than a moment, it can still be capitolized on by the right person at the right time.

its always a risk vs. reward type of situation.

[B-Rad]

About moving the back leg first thing, I notice he did that once around the 1 minute mark. I've done it like that before in line drills, and I think I do that in the form I learned after the opening pi quan. Also, with the step front foot first beng quan the front fist is usually deflecting an incoming attack with a small circular motion so you're not just stepping forward into something with no action. If he's doing that, I can't tell... Also, I'm not an expert on all the details of every branch of xingyi quan out there, lol. I just learned the 5 element fists, some of the 12 animals, and 1 routine.

[YouKnowWho]

There is no such thing as a risk-free technique.

Agree! But the art of "entering strategy" is trying to reduce your risk to the minimum in order to obtain a safe entry.

This reminds me of your The risk of the TCMA hammer fist thread.

The 4 most interested TCMA discussions are,

the risk for

- Bagua circle walking,
- XingYi half stepping,
- Longfist hammer fist, and
- WC Bong Sau.

We can also add the BJJ "pull/jump guard" into that list if we want to.

to me the greatest risk would be having such a narrow base when the rear leg is drawn forward to meet he lead.

It depends on the initial distance between you and your opponent before your footwork. If the distance is close enough for your opponent to take you down, you don't have to move your foot and your opponent can still take you down.

Since when you move your back leg to your front leg, the distance between you and your opponent remain unchange (your front leg position and your opponent's front leg position), your footwork should not introduce any more risk during the process.

[Lucas]

btw i dont study xingyi, but i see what you say....its not to far different than some footwork in western boxing actually... different flavor but same application with drawing the rear foot up to meet the lead for extra force, or narrow your stance and shoot forward with force as basic examples. my chen instructor would have us constantly do that drill over and over but with a very western boxing form to it.

to me this doesnt matter on style too much as you can find this similar footwork in any fighting, just variations.

back leg first or front leg first...? i think that may depend, i like both personally, but for different reasons. leading with a the front leg commits you more, bit at the same time reduces the range quickly then the rear leg helps follow up, but again you are commited much more so. you can move in to jam and follow through with a strike and set up the throw...imo i think this is more offensive.

moving the rear leg first i find more defensive, depending on the range, like you say its easier to reverse and recover, but can also deliver a suprise by pushing your range follow through.

.....have to go back to work

[YouKnowWho]

to me this doesnt matter on style too much as you can find this similar footwork in any fighting, just variations.

Agree! The footwork is above all styles.

IMO, there are 3 different major footworks:

1. 1/2 step - move front leg, back leg follows.
2. full step - move back leg, then move front leg.
3. 1 and 1/2 step - move front leg, move back leg, and then move front leg again.

It all depends on the initial range between you and your opponent and how much distance that you want to cover.

[-N-]

IMO, to step in with your leading leg first is just like to throw a cross without a jab first, you may over commit and expose yourself when the timing is not quite right.

Then it is a problem with the timing, and not the stepping. If you commit with wrong timing, you are in trouble. If you commit with right timing, you kill your opponent. If he is better than you and kills you instead, then it's too bad.

It may be better to move your back leg behind your front leg first. This way since the distance between you and your opponent hasn't change, you can withdraw your back leg if needed.

If you are still tentative and are not closing in for the kill, then I could see that.

When you move your leading leg first, your stance may be too wide to recover from any mistake.

To be the fastest in closing in with a committed attack, lead leg moves while back leg launches. It is all in transition and there is no wide stance as maybe when someone is just maneuvering for position.

[YouKnowWho]

moving the rear leg first i find more defensive, ...

I feel the opposite. You can punch in both kind of foot works . But when you move your front leg, you cannot kick at that moment. When you move your back leg, you can.

In the following clip, you can land your back foot behind your front foot so you can kick your front foot out. You can also kick out your front foot "while" you are moving your back foot. It's just a simple "jump kick".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_84FKIj6k0

IMO, it's better to use a kick to move in than to use a punch to move in. The reason is simple. You have to enter your opponent's kicking range before you can enter his punching range. When you kick, you may put your opponent in defense mode. When you punch, you may not.

Then it is a problem with the timing,

Timing is a relative term and it depends on you and your opponent's skill level. It's the risk involved. If you move your front leg first, you have to take the risk to be swept. If you move your back leg first, you don't have to take that risk. Even if your opponent's sweep may not be able to take you down (1 point contact), his sweep can put you in defense mode, that will give him a chance for his "safe entry".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jWBs5w6HpQ

[-N-]

Timing is a relative term and it depends on you and your opponent's skill level. It's the risk involved. If you move your front leg first, you have to take the risk to be swept. If you move your back leg first, you don't have to take that risk. Even if your opponent's sweep may not be able to take you down (1 point contact), his sweep can put you in defense mode, that will give him a chance for his "safe entry".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jWBs5w6HpQ

The person stepping needs to be more threatening.

He's stepping without launching, throws only one strike, and it falls short.

In that situation, he deserves to be swept.

As he feels the sweep, he should be unweighting that leg and yielding so not to get off balance. If he has good skill, he can leak the leg out and kick your leg instead, then continue with highline attack as you get turned to your right.

[-N-]

In the following clip, you can land your back foot behind your front foot so you can kick your front foot out. You can also kick out your front foot "while" you are moving your back foot. It's just a simple "jump kick".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_84FKIj6k0

IMO, it's better to use a kick to move in than to use a punch to move in. The reason is simple. You have to enter your opponent's kicking range before you can enter his punching range. When you kick, you may put your opponent in defense mode. When you punch, you may not.

Sure, that works fine. In this case you are far away and use jump kick to close the gap.

If you are talking about just barely outside punching range, and stepping with front vs. stepping with back, that is different.

From the greater range, jump kick and running footwork is better for closing in, compared to stepping with front foot.

[YouKnowWho]

If he has good skill, he can leak the leg out and kick your leg instead, then continue with highline attack as you get turned to your right.

That's what I'm talking about. Your opponent may be able to pull his leg off and escape out of your foot sweep, and then sweep back at your sweeping leg. Your foot sweep already "interrupts" his attack and force him to response to it. If your opponent does not traing "逃腿(Tao Tui) - leg escaping" then your foot sweep will be more effective on him.

Your opponent doesn't have to worry about that if he moves his back leg first.

[-N-]

Ok, I see.

For us it is normal to train the leg escaping. So we don't care if the other person tries to sweep. In fact, we like when they try, because it just gives us another opening, and we just keep closing in regardless.

I had the students drilling this in the recent weeks for sparring.

Even in classical Mantis 2 person forms, the person counterattacks at the same time as escaping the sweep.

[YouKnowWho]

There are many counters against foot sweep. A simple ouside crescent kick can just do the job. This is the most common method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnbIvpFVHEw