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Thread: Scientific Proof that ‘Our thoughts create our reality'

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    Sal, with all due respect, this is a blanket statement that really needs to be appropriately qualified if you want to be taken seriously (probably you don't care either way, but whatever); point is this: what sort of "illnesses" re you "healing, what evidence do you use to assess your efficacy? do people come to you with medical diagnoses and tests that you use in a before / after assessment, or is it that they come with the sort of complaints that the docs don't know what to call / do with, etc., and after seeing you they feel better?
    consider what sort of patients come to you - the degree of pre-selfselection of your clinetel will heavilly bias the results you get; people come to you expecting to be healed by qigong; therefore, you have a powerful entrainment effect mixed in with the already innate capacity of the organism to drive itself towards autonomic balance / homeostasis when interracting in a "therapeutic" way with another individual; which is how the qigong, faith healers, reiki masters, polarity and any other "energy" healers" essentially achieve the healing effects they talk about - it's not what they are doing particularly, it's something intrinsic to have we are; as such there is a phennomenon of regression towards the mean, meaning that in many cases, doing just about anything will alleviate certain symptoms if they are mediated primarilly via the autonomics (which accounts for a lot of stuff, especially since many people are "sick" because they have been living in chronic sympathetic overdrive / chronic inflammatory response for years, and when you engage parasympathetics via the sort of phenomenon common to all energy healing, you get beneficial effects)



    this is, frankly, the typical attitude of an amateur practitioner; and I don't say this as an insult, it's just statement of fact; as an amateur, you have the luxury of essentially creating your own context for what you do
    what happens when what you do doesn't work? how do you rethink your strategy?
    there's no free lunch - if a technique has the power to help, it also has the power to harm - not understanding why what one does works, that's just irresponsible; what happens if your patient has a bad effect? as a professional w a license, I am held accountable if I am negligent - as such, my patient's have recourse if I do them harm due to my innapporpriate treatment - this is great, as it helps keep me on my toes, and gives them recourse in case I don't; who oversees you if you screw up? no one - and hence, you have the luxury of the above noted perspective;
    this is why as a professional you know about precautions and contraindications to certain things, and also when to refer out because someone has red flags you aren't trained to deal with
    as a professional, one is constantly working to understand more and more why what one does works, because it's the only way to use what one knows efficiently and responsibly;
    unfortunately, one can practice as an "energy healer" and basically get away with this sort of attitude, because the techniques" one uses "work" not in function of what you are doing, but because it is in the nature of the organism to respond to generalized input by driving towards homeostasis - meaning that you can very effectively influence autonomics to balance out simply by having the intention to do so, even if the patient is not pre-invested in what you are doing;
    it's a big world of "healing" out there Sal; from the sound of things, you've experienced only one little piece of it...

    and I know that your default argument is that you healed yourself, that you saved your own life w your qigong practice, and that gives you the purview to say whatever you want without thinking you should be contradicted; make no mistake, I am not disputing this in any way - it is entirely possible that what you did had exactly the effect you believe it did; and that's awesome; but it has nothing to do with what happens when one starts treating others, especially if one is not trained specifically to do so; it's a different set of criteria when one claims to be having specific effects as a result of what one does, and having a "I don't care why it works, it just does" perspective is intellectually and ethically disingenuous;

    funny, btw, how you don't need proof of anything, except that you start a thread highlighting how there is "scientific" proof for thoughts creating reality, etc.; so I guess that the "proof" is ok when it supports your perspective...
    Ha, well you know me better than that, just from all my articles written over the past 30 years. Umm, I don't "need" at this point in time is because I did spend 30 years training, researching, learning, understanding, and practicing to get to the point being able to do it so that it works efficiently and effectively. I completely understand it and can harness it, hence it works. What I was saying (trying to) was that after awhile, thinking stands in the way of doing the work. There has to be a "time to **** or get off the pot", is what I essentially meant.

    As for what kind of ailments: tumors, cysts, fibermyalgia, lyme disease, arthritis, shingles, uterine and ovarian fiberoids, thyroid goiters, and such things, including back pain, hand and foot pain, and so on.
    I have MDs that went to me and that sent people to me. People who were bed ridden for years able to walk, drive, go out, be normal again. People far gone with cancer that were able to live an extra amount of months to be with their family, they died, but
    AND, it works regardless of people believing that it will or not. I have plenty of clients that say they don't believe in any of this stuff, they just know that whatever is happening is working and they get better. I have people getting tested before and after I work on them, with testing showing shrinkage or disappearance of stuff that shouldn't be there.

    I don't go around making "claims", people come to me from word of mouth, I have a website, but that's doing nothing really. I could do these things since I was young and my KF teachers encouraged me to discipline this ability within Qigong.

    BTW, if you are going to smother people and measure every word they said (not me, others on this site), it's pretty hard to carry a conversation. People feel badgered and attacked. You don't even know them and you step all over people and then they go away and don't participate in the forum. You're not the Logic Police, people are just looking to communicate with others. You can discuss discrepancies and so on in people's posts without ripping them apart. So easy to do sitting behind a computer screen anonymously, but in person I'm sure you'd be very different, unless you're a total misanthrope without any friends. People are always complaining to me about being attacked verbally in this forum, give people some leeway and then talk with them. It's like reading the rantings of a mean parent or something whenever I see your posts often times.
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  2. #17
    Well you know Sal, even Jesus didn't say HE was the one healing other people!

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    Well you know Sal, even Jesus didn't say HE was the one healing other people!
    oh you know what I mean. Healers are just the conduit by which energy flows from the source to a person, like human modems.

    I especially know that because my father's grand-uncle is being made a saint in the Catholic church. He was a priest, and people became healed when he worked with them, even after his death. He was an exorcist for the church.
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  4. #19
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    another cool fact. Jesus never healed or performed a miracle in the town was living in.

    Just saying, cause its an interesting fact reflecting the psyche of the human being.
    By Peace or by Pieces.

    You are a human being, not a human doing.
    J Bradshaw.

    Out beyond the ideas of wrong doing and right doing, there is a field. I will meet you there.
    Rumi

  5. #20
    Sal,
    while you I don't discount the effects on clients that you report, and while I agree that there is something going on that is more than just the client's belief system at play, my issue is that the old saw "it works, I don't care why" just doesn't cut it when one is a practicing healthcare professional - rather, it is one's responsibility as such to continually investigate and explore what is going on; to do any less is unethical, IMPO - and in regards to what you are talking about, there are numerous extant mechanisms by which phenommena such as "qi" can be readily explained (in fact, if you read through the links in my sig, there are a few "scientific" articles that I think discuss what is going on physiologically when we are sensing things w out touching them (e.g. - so-called "energy")
    furthermore, there is a point at which intuitive healing looses it's traction - generally it's those stubborn little vertebral joints that don't release without manipulating them, or that one little zone of visceral fascia that won't unwind indirectly that you have to go digging into, etc. - if you are going to do this sort of thing, you better be thinking logically about what you are doing, because the intuitive stuff won't help you make the decision about whether to do it or not all by itself...

    "Logic Police"...hmmm, have to figure out where to put that on my CV

    btw, the people who complain to you about me: there's this thing called the "ignore" option - if they find me so distasteful, i invite them to utilize it, because if someone jumps on here w a strong opinion and can't handle it when they get one back at them that they can't argue well against, I will post as I choose (at least until Gene tells me otherwise); interestingly enough though, there are plenty of people who post here regularly with whom I have perfectly fine interactions, who, when I rattle their cages on a specific point, don't go crying to moderator, but instead seem to be able to hold their own just fine in a point by point discussion...of course, they tend to be guys like Scott and Xiao Meng who seem to have a balanced perspective of the uses / limits of both logic and intuition...interesting...

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Has science been able to prove that we actually have thoughts? a conscience?
    I don't mean brain activity, but prove that we actually THINK at all?
    Materialistic perspective would be that brain activity is the cause of thoughts.
    It is bias to think that the art of war is just for killing people. It is not to kill people, it is to kill evil. It is a strategem to give life to many people by killing the evil of one person.
    - Yagyū Munenori

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Rob View Post
    another cool fact. Jesus never healed or performed a miracle in the town was living in.

    Just saying, cause its an interesting fact reflecting the psyche of the human being.
    Well, if we are going to nitpick, his name wasn't Jesus either!

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    talking about looking internally, you may want to spend sometime re-examining your own apparently non-conscious bias and thinly veiled attitude of "I've got it all figured out about what's best" perspective...considering it's your first post on the forum, it's a pretty opinionated way to make an entrance; which is fine, of course, it's your right to post however you like; and certainly others here will agree with you; others, of course, won't...
    I certainly don't feel I have it all figured out, and I'm not quite sure why you would make that assumption from my post. I fully realize it was my first post, and my intention was simply to further discussion and post a viewpoint. Of course some will agree and some won't...that is what makes for an interesting discussion. We all have different viewpoints from where we stand, and that is what makes us unique and interesting.

    Just to be clear as I stated in my original post, I fully support research into Qigong and all mind-body medicine. I think an integrative approach combining the best of Western and Eastern medicine is what works best and will hopefully be embraced more and more in the future. I welcome counter viewpoints, as again this is what makes any discussion interesting. However, as Sal noted in his reply you seem to want to go on the attack and systematically pick apart others posts, which makes it quite difficult to build a thread in which we all learn and take away something of value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown
    Perhaps you mean there are centuries worth of anecdotal evidence from practitioners in China that Qigong can help improve and sustain life.
    I actually did mean empirical evidence. For instance, when the Taoists spent centuries discovering what herbs, tonics, and practices were beneficial and which were not it was based upon direct observation, however I can certainly understand why someone may want to consider it anecdotal, even though records were kept and books were written. I am fine either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown
    If it cannot work absent ones subjective opinions about it, its efficacy is primarily based upon ones belief that it works, which means it isn't the Qigong that produces the results, but ones BELIEF that it works that produces the results.

    Under these conditions, it isn't the Qigong that produces the beneficial effects, it is the mind. If it is the mind, then Qigong becomes unnecessary to practice.

    Roughly one third of individuals respond to the placebo effect, this demonstrates the power of the mind to influence the efficacy of any particular practice.

    My first Qigong teacher was an American Indian Medicine Man, who knew nothing of Chinese Qigong!
    Scott, I am actually in 100% agreement with you on this point. In fact, it doesn't matter if Qigong works because it is real or because a person simply believes it is real. If it works that is all that matters! My original teacher stressed this point. In fact, our system was called "Nianli" which roughly translates to "Mind Power Healing". The Yi or intention was the most important part. It is absolutely the mind that produces positive or negative results.

    It can be all be considering Qigong, whether it is practiced by a Chinese Taoist or an American Indian Medicine Man. Qigong is a vast umbrella and ultimately anything that involves working with our own energy and intention for self-cultivation or healing can fall under it. I imagine that the Medicine Man and a Taoist healer would probably be in agreement on various underlying principles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown
    I see.....when one wishes to learn and understand more, one needs to learn and understand less! Got it!
    Ha! Sarcasm. I love it. Sarcasm is one of my absolute favorite tools as well. With my original quote "When you want to learn and understand more you need to do just the opposite. Look internally and practice more.", I was trying to stress that any mind-body practice is about turning inwards to seek answers instead of always looking outside yourself. An intuitive mind and asking question is also extremely important, especially for anyone fortunate enough to have access to a really knowledgeable teacher. But you gain real understanding when you then go and practice. Certain things can only be learned from actually practicing. I believe that nowadays more than ever the majority of us already spend more than enough time focused externally. A little more time working on the mind-body connection can only be a good thing. The most difficult part is finding the time each day to spend on self-cultivation, when we all have fast-moving busy lives filled with obligations that must be fulfilled.
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  9. #24
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    We have the power to shape our reality, to a limited extent of course.
    My reality is not yours nor your mine.
    In Osain Bolts reality, he can run the 100 meters in under 9.6 seconds, in mine, I can't do that.
    And that is a physcial thing, far more constraining than other things that are subject to reality.

    Some say that Christ healed because he had found the true name of God and used it and all the power that came with it, others say that he had found out that the source of life ( spirit) could be manipulated and used to heal.
    Of course its quite ok to say anything, proving is another matter.
    Anything that stimulates are bodies natural systems that heal and fight illnesses will help in doing just that, be it foods, exercise or medicine.

    For soemthing to be proven by science or accepted as fact it must be not only done over the course of many studies, typically blind and controlled, bu it must also be reproduced, consistently.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    I certainly don't feel I have it all figured out, and I'm not quite sure why you would make that assumption from my post.
    well, your first post started out with a very strong proscriptive statement:
    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    I just joined this forum and I found it odd that the first few threads I read revolved around scientific proof. Although I'm not opposed to research being conducted in order to help prove the effectiveness of Qigong, it should certainly not be the main focus point.
    (bold added for emphasis); you basically come on here w ur preconceptions ("I found it odd")and saying how something should (or should not) be ("It should not be the main focus"); so while you now make a case for your own equanimity, your initial post was hardly an example of that

    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    I fully realize it was my first post, and my intention was simply to further discussion and post a viewpoint. Of course some will agree and some won't...that is what makes for an interesting discussion. We all have different viewpoints from where we stand, and that is what makes us unique and interesting.
    everyone has and is entitled to a viewpoint; some viewpoints are just more well-informed and / or are communicated more effectively than others...

    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    Just to be clear as I stated in my original post, I fully support research into Qigong and all mind-body medicine.
    that is a very different tone than the above referenced statement from your first post;

    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    I think an integrative approach combining the best of Western and Eastern medicine is what works best and will hopefully be embraced more and more in the future.
    why? for example, I use an osteopathic manual approach; as compared to the tuina I have studied / seen done, it blows it away in terms of efficiency and specificity, as well as in regards to whole-body functionality; when combined w skilful application of more "standard" PT methodology, it addresses my patient's needs, never needing to "go East"; OTOH, perhaps you mean to suggest that a combination of logic and intuition is what is needed, as opposed to just one or the other; which I agree is the case, but that one must be careful not to use either unduly...

    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    I welcome counter viewpoints, as again this is what makes any discussion interesting. However, as Sal noted in his reply you seem to want to go on the attack
    hey, if you want to qualify it as an "attack" because I took issue w what u wrote, and because you don't like how I post, that's your issue - don't come onto a public forum and expect that everyone will answer you in a way that you find appropriate - if you don't like it, put me on ignore; OTOH, maybe don't be so sensitive and see if the content of what I write is something of use to you or not

    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    and systematically pick apart others posts, which makes it quite difficult to build a thread in which we all learn and take away something of value.
    lol; so when I answer point by point, that's a "bad" thing now? should I just respond holistically? I;m sorry, I didn't realize there were some set of "mind/body" rules to responding I was ignoring? (BTW, this is sarcasm , you may recognize it as you profess to use it a lot); that said, again, if the style in which I post impedes your capacity to "take away something of value", then just ignore me; you may also want to read up on the way in which Ch'an Buddhists communicate w each other in certain cases...


    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    I actually did mean empirical evidence. For instance, when the Taoists spent centuries discovering what herbs, tonics, and practices were beneficial and which were not it was based upon direct observation, however I can certainly understand why someone may want to consider it anecdotal, even though records were kept and books were written. I am fine either way.
    empirical evidence can be either anecdotal or research-protocol based - it has to do with direct observation, regardless of the manner in which that information is gathered; however, the entire body of TCM knowledge prior to recent times is ALL anecdotal, because it's not based on a defined research methodology / use of statistical analysis (same w a lot of other approaches, including so-called allopathic medicine); which is fine there is nothing wrong w anecdotal, it's a critical component, but it's also highly subjective, and therefore to generalize based on anecdotal report, even when there's lots of it, can be misleading; that's why in medicine now there is a push towards "evidence-based", because a lot of the "evidence" for even contemporary medical practice is anecdotal in nature (e.g. - a great deal of surgical technique is largely based on anecdotal evidence, not research protocols)

    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    Scott, I am actually in 100% agreement with you on this point. In fact, it doesn't matter if Qigong works because it is real or because a person simply believes it is real.
    actually, it matters a lot, because it's two different mechanisms, and understanding what they are, how to access them and when to use one, the other, or both is actually important when one works with patients on a regular basis in a professional capacity;

    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    If it works that is all that matters! My original teacher stressed this point.
    he is wrong; this is a dangerous perspective to convey to people who have no capacity to judge the contextual ramifications of this position;

    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    In fact, our system was called "Nianli" which roughly translates to "Mind Power Healing". The Yi or intention was the most important part. It is absolutely the mind that produces positive or negative results.
    that works with one particular type of therapeutic approach, and it is the one best suited to amateurs with no formal training or license, because in most cases, you will just be riding the wave of the homeostatic imperative that you are facilitating; the problem is that people who do this sort of healing work tend to get swept along by the entrainment wave it generates, and often become very enamored of themselves and what they think that they can do...

    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    It can be all be considering Qigong, whether it is practiced by a Chinese Taoist or an American Indian Medicine Man. Qigong is a vast umbrella and ultimately anything that involves working with our own energy and intention for self-cultivation or healing can fall under it. I imagine that the Medicine Man and a Taoist healer would probably be in agreement on various underlying principles.
    yes, and as such, to call it qigong or anything else actually is limiting - what we are looking at here is the INTRINSIC capacity of the human (and animal) organism to respond homeostatically in a certain way to just about any sort of "therapeutic" input

    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    Ha! Sarcasm. I love it. Sarcasm is one of my absolute favorite tools as well. With my original quote "When you want to learn and understand more you need to do just the opposite. Look internally and practice more.", I was trying to stress that any mind-body practice is about turning inwards to seek answers instead of always looking outside yourself.
    tell me, at what point does your "self" end and the "outside yourself" begin? if you can answer me that, I will bow down and call you my teacher!

    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    An intuitive mind and asking question is also extremely important, especially for anyone fortunate enough to have access to a really knowledgeable teacher.
    not necesarilly; one can discern "truth" as such for oneself without another person teaching them how to do it; some people need a teacher, others do not;

    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    But you gain real understanding when you then go and practice. Certain things can only be learned from actually practicing.
    absolutely true; except it's not practice - there is no such thing...

    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    I believe that nowadays more than ever the majority of us already spend more than enough time focused externally.
    there is no distinction between focusing internally and externally except when one makes that distinction;

    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    A little more time working on the mind-body connection can only be a good thing. The most difficult part is finding the time each day to spend on self-cultivation, when we all have fast-moving busy lives filled with obligations that must be fulfilled.
    my teacher talks about the "lotus in the flame" or "threading the needle's eye" as indicators of how one can "practice" while engaged in the hectic pace of modern life...the time is there, the circumstances, the opportunity are all there AT ALL TIMES, even when one is stuck in traffic, overloaded at work, stressed at home - one only needs that instantaneous realization to create an infinite spaceousness regardless of temporal circumstances - thus, while it is fine to "set aside" time for quite, solitary contemplation, it is in fact not the true opportunity to "practice" - it is when one is in the midst of the chaos of life that one has the chance to practice - and as such, there is no such thing as practice, no time to practice - there is only that such as it is, and how we negotiate it in that moment - thus, all dharmas are empty, all "practice" set aside from the everyday is simply polishing a stone to make a mirror

    I hope none of the above hurt your or anyone else's feelings... (more sarcasm)

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    I hope none of the above hurt your or anyone else's feelings... (more sarcasm)
    My delicate sensibilities have been thoroughly violated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    This is not a veiled request for compliments

    The short story is I did 325# for one set of 1 rep.

    1) Does this sound gifted, or just lucky?

  12. #27
    Hi discoverthefire,

    You have earned some respect for having the cajones to at least respond to the criticism of your very first post here.

    A lot of people wet their pants and go crying to their mommies.

    The problem with many Western Taichi, Qigong students is, they are dilettantes who have no idea what they are talking about. They think the Eastern way is to just all get along with hugs and kisses and therefore they can't take being challenged. They laughably think that responding to being aggressively challenged is beneath their maturity, that is, beneath how they THINK a person with THEIR SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING should behave! These types of people are bound by the chains their own preconceived notions.

    They concentrate on living a Yin existence fearing the Yang. This gives them a very unbalanced world view and they can't take being challenged. Heaven forbid they might learn something they didn't know. Many of them think they already have it all figured out and don't want their "safe little world" challenged!

    It isn't called Yin-Yang for nothing. One must take the one with the other. In fact we don't have a choice in the matter. Pretending there is no Yang in the world doesn't make it go away!

    Being challenged in our beliefs and what we think we know is what stimulates growth. The challenge to communicate what we do believe in a more understandable or comprehensive manner is what establishes out beliefs.

    Our muscles get stronger by challenging their capacity, so does our brain!

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    all dharmas are empty
    NOT ME!!!!!

  13. #28
    Hey Scott,

    I am with you on the yin-yang relationship, and how many Qigong practitioners begin to focus more strongly on the yin and forget about the yang. It is really only when we are challenged in some way that we grow.

    Plus I may be posting in the "Qigong and Meditation" section, but I also train hard in Hop Gar Kung Fu and I imagine my Sifu would be a bit disappointed in me if I went crying to mommy over a few words.
    The online portal for Qigong and Tai Chi Training

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    A lot of people wet their pants
    good thing there's a nurse around to clean it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    NOT ME!!!!!
    true - you are full of it; now shut up and get back to your 10x scope!


    Quote Originally Posted by discoverthefire View Post
    Hey Scott,

    I am with you on the yin-yang relationship, and how many Qigong practitioners begin to focus more strongly on the yin and forget about the yang. It is really only when we are challenged in some way that we grow.

    Plus I may be posting in the "Qigong and Meditation" section, but I also train hard in Hop Gar Kung Fu and I imagine my Sifu would be a bit disappointed in me if I went crying to mommy over a few words.
    well said...

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    true - you are full of it; now shut up and get back to your 10x scope!
    Big Nose!

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