Tai Chi & Bodybuilding

[diego]

Does anyone train the two, how do you combine the energy?. To me it's like Yoga and Sumo training...in yoga you train the stomach vacuum and being vegetarian helps achieve mastery of it wheras sumo guys eat 20, 000 calories a day, lol.

So Arnold tells you to practise flexing your thighs vacuum your abs spread your lats while face and arms remain relaxed while holding poses for a minute to an hour. Tai Chi strives to use no tension continuosly while moving through uncomfortable postures...How does one teach say a 20 year old fresh to martial arts how to get buff like arnold but also have the tai chi body...should you train tai chi one week then lift weights one week and repeat, what do you guys do?.

I'm doing bak mei for one year and tai chi for like 5 months half ass, it took me seven months to get the basic yang short form I let the postures come naturally with my sisook while training full time bak mei from our sifu. For bak Mei sifu says don't lift weights cuz you need loose tendons to perform the bak mei steps properly like football and rugby aren't good for bak mei weapon skills ping pong and tennis are better sports to aid one's development of short power. I'm a big guy i don't need to buff up with weights I just used them for general mass building...it's better to be fat than buffed doing bak mei you need loose power...I'm just wondering if like say chen tai chi and bodybuilding full time would be good to build lots of power!?...

I posted this in the main forum cuz i do them as supplements to kung fu so I feel it shouldn't be in the tai chi or fitness forum lol...it will get more views here!.

[B-Rad]

You probably wouldn't get big like bodybuilders without serious supplements (and maybe steroids of some kind) and a great deal of training. There's a difference between bodybuilding and strength training. Strength training and taiji go together fine, bodybuilding like Arnold, maybe not so much. Most CMA teachers have a pretty poor understanding of athletic training beyond just doing what they've always been taught.

Some basic body weight strength training could probably help a lot of people's taiji quan.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are MANY types of Strength Training ( ST) and "bodybuilding" is just one of them.
The goal of BB is to build lean muscle mass and that is NOT at odds with ANY IMA.
Yin and Yang, remember?
BUT, that said, certainly certain types of ST CAN be conter=productive to IMA training, such as isometrics and even in some cases isokinetics.
Lifting and lowering objects is something we do everyday, to get stronger at it is NOT a bad thing.
Progressive resistence training has been shown to be crucial for developing strong bones.
Hypertrophy ( the increase in muscle size) is a combination of a specific type of ST ( bodybuilding) and diet.
In short I am agreeing with B-rad.
Allow me this view:
You need a push to get your car out of snow or mud, or we need h elp moving furniture or you, god forbid, get stuck under a piano or heavy item, who would you want their to help you, the typical Tai Chi person or a Body Builder ( even better a powerlifter, lol)?

[dcrjradmonish]

Look at Bolo Yeung

[David Jamieson]

tai chi is for old people to remain supple and to keep their joints fluid.
It's not for young men.

There are a lot of young men who do it...but I don't think there is as much value in younger people. They don't really get the benefits and it certainly isn't used in sportive combatives.

I guess, people can do what they like, but Tai Chi for a young folks, in my opinion is not as productive for them as other more vigorous forms of exercise.

[ShaolinDan]

Well, I've only tried Tai Chi as a young man...so I can't say it wouldn't be more productive as an old one, but I've found it pretty productive.

I started practicing after I developed plantar fasciitis (foot tendinitis) and had to take a break from my regular kung fu curriculum.
I believe that I was able to return to my regular training largely as a result of strengthening my feet through tai chi practice.

I will never give up my more vigorous training in exchange for tai chi (until I have to), but I'm not giving up the tai chi either. I think it's helped my kung fu improve across the board--it's all about body awareness and control.

Also, meditation/meditative practice is good for young people...it teaches patience.

[ShaolinDan]

Oh yeah, and as regards the original question, this:

Look at Bolo Yeung

[SPJ]

strength and flexibility

1. strength, I lift weights and gradually strengthen each muscle group.

but there are also specific hard body conditioning for fighting functions.

2. flexiblity

muscle, tendon and joint "stretching". yi jin jing is good.

tai chi forms especially yang large form from yang cheng fu

and many simplied wushu forms such as 24 postures are based on yang cheng fu da jia.

they are expansive moves, so that you are stretching your muscle and tendon and lubricating your joints, too.

of course, there are also hard body conditioning for cai, lie, zhou, kao etc

so no matter what you do.

as long as they are strengthening you and increasing your flexibility

it is good, then.

[bawang]

in internal martial arts you need to lift weights. if someone says dont lift weights screw him dont listen.
internal martial art its half hard half soft aka ying yang. its not that internal martial arts dont use brute strength, you just use it half of the time.

[YouKnowWho]

tai chi is for old people to remain supple and to keep their joints fluid.
It's not for young men.

There are a lot of young men who do it...but I don't think there is as much value in younger people. They don't really get the benefits and it certainly isn't used in sportive combatives.

I guess, people can do what they like, but Tai Chi for a young folks, in my opinion is not as productive for them as other more vigorous forms of exercise.

It's so funny that Taiji was my 1st style and I started my Taiji training when I was 7 years old. Today, I do less and less Taiji because it doesn't make me feel exited any more (can't do the same stuff for the rest of my life). My mom must drop my head on the ground when I was a baby.

Since I started my Taiji so early, all my life, when people talk about "brute force", "tight shoulder', "muscle group isolation", I truly don't know what they are talking about.

[diego]

in internal martial arts you need to lift weights. if someone says dont lift weights screw him dont listen.
internal martial art its half hard half soft aka ying yang. its not that internal martial arts dont use brute strength, you just use it half of the time.

bak mei covers the external with the super quick footwork shuffles manipulating bodywieght with weapons and shaolin calisthenics like handstand cartwheel and bridges. Im getting tai chi bak mei style...sisook goes all slow in jik bo for the pullback spear and punch and then ZHOOM lol he explodes his whole stance with a push that leaves u kowtowing for a more indepth lesson... Looking up bolo yeung now. I never thought Id do a scholarly search on bruce lees nemesis.

[Ozzy Dave]

The slow form in Tai Ji Quan is basically preparation for practising Fa Jin.

It is beneficial for the health of the joints and tendons and lays the groundwork to appropriately pressurize the body when expressing force.

As such, plyometric type weight training is the best fit for pairing with Tai Ji Quan rather than absolute strength or strength endurance type training.

Having said that, I personally find the ballistic exercises done with kettle bells (such as swings, snatches, clean and jerks) a good fit which also offer a lot of strength endurance.

Dave

[YouKnowWho]

IMO, if you do anything in slow motion, it can always help you to develop body unification - all body parts move and stop at the same time. It doesn't have to be Taiji.

[Eric Olson]

Taiji is about storing and issuing energy. You must store before you issue. In strength training there isn't any storing, only issuing.

How can you reconcile the two? I'm not sure.

However, I don't think Taijij actually makes anyone stronger. It only allows you to deal with an incoming force (including gravity), store it into your structure and reissue it back out. Think shock absorber.

But what if you need to move a big rock or lift a heavy suitcase. I remember reading about some Taiji master that couldn't lift a bowling ball but could throw a person across the room.

That doesn't sound like a well-rounded fighter. Also, consider that adding muscle burns more calories and will keep you trim.

My advice is to work only with your own body weight so that you develop the whole length of the muscle, not just the belly of it, like body builders do. What bodybuilders lack is "functional strength."

Here's a really good book I've been working with.

http://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Your-O.../dp/0971407614

He has something like 120 bodyweight exercises for all levels of fitness.

These are just some notes. Please feel free to ask me any question if you need clarification.

Eric

[bawang]

the taiji symbol the ying yang means balance, 50/50. think about it. is being limp wristed soft balanced?

yang lu chan the founder of yang style taijiquan trained with 350 pound stone seal(deadlift). think about it