Ng Long Bat Gwa Gwun 五郎八卦棍

[hskwarrior]

that's true. i had always wondered how so many different styles could have a set named 6.5 point staff. it was probably a general form then the schools turned it into their own.

[CLFNole]

I think baat kwa kwun & lok dim boon kwun were more "poling" styles of the time rather than sets and many styles incorporated them into their respective systems as forms and used the names. The names are used a lot like "mui fa" is used.

[hskwarrior]

i got you

[chusauli]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGzWR6xA7Yk

Is there another link?

I'd be curious to see it...

[soulfist]

Chan Family CLF borrowed from and has been influenced by many styles, both northern and southern. Ng Long Baat Gwa Gwun is you have it is a very recent addition and definitely not present for the first 3 to 5 generations Id say. In terms of adoptions from Hung Ga there is Ng Long Baat Gwa Cheung and a highly modified but interesting Gung Ji Fuk Fu Keun, both Ive learned from both CLF and the original Hung Ga versions.

Fut Saan CLF today has followed the same and adopted new items, but none were part of its development. This branch is predominately southern weapons and didnt take on the same northern influences of body structure and way of motion that Chan Family CLF did.

6.5 Staff was originally not a form, but 6.5 movements! Wing Chun may be the simplest and truest expression but other systems like CLF and Bak Mei also have this. There was a magazine in China out a couple years ago with 10 articles from 10 masters, each presenting their take and version of 6.5 staff, and it was very informative. Sure its similar to all other staffs because its foundational movements of the staff.


I liked the posted version of Ng Long Baat Gwa Gwun but regardless of it being in a CLF school I wouldnt say it is CLF version, as the only non-Hung Ga aspects of that presentation would be the practitioners personal skill.

In my CLF we have a form called Jeh Ga Baat Gwa Gwun, which was born generations ago from Ng Long Baat Gwa Gwun. Both belong to the "5 Famous Southern Staffs" of Kung Fu. This Jeh Ga Baat Gwa Gwun (a full system actually) which now is a part of our particular branch of Hung Sing is seldom found outside of Choi Lei Fut, but even so we never considered it a "CLF version".

[soulfist]

i have noticed the similarities between the 6.5 pole of ving tsun and ng long bat gwa gwun. interesting to find out hung ga merged them.

Hung Ga did not merge these 2 forms, it was Lam Sai Wing who did! I learned this form first from the Lam Sai Wing lineage then later from the Dang Fong lineage. I was surprised to find the Dang Fong lineage was much longer and seemingly more complete, to which I assumed Dang modified it. After looking around it seems that the Dang Fong version was actually the standard version, with other masters saying that Lam Sai Wing forgot (or possibly just omitted) much of the form, then later filled that gap in with 6.5 Staff.

From knowing both versions I would say that the one performed in the so-called CLF version is from Lam Sai Wing, and thus must be a very recent addition.


A friend of mine once said "weapons know no family", which I partially agree with, so I guess Im just talking trivia.

[CLFNole]

That is very true a lot of weapons are "borrowed" and tweaked to each style.

What line of CLF do you follow? I have never heard of the Jeh Family Baat Kwa Kwun before, sounds interesting.

[Shaolindynasty]

The historical background or to which system this form "belongs"to aside, I practice this form because it has alot of interesting and useful staff fighting concepts contained within. Our choy lay fut curriculum also has some hop ga in it as well. The hop ga and maybe the ng long bat gwa gwun were added in the 3rd generation by Fong Yuk Shu.

At any rate we retain the hop ga for the same reason that we practice ng long bat gwa gwun and for that matter the rest of our clf practice, useful concepts and practical techniques for today.

[CLFNole]

It is the same with us. We have some northern weapon sets that Lee Koon Hung learned from Shek Kin that have been incorporated into our curiculum.

[LoneTiger108]

A friend of mine once said "weapons know no family", which I partially agree with...

Your friend sounds like a wise man

[soulfist]

Jeh Ga Baat Gwa Gwun 謝家八卦棍 is actually a staff system consisting of several forms. It left the Hung Ga system with the same person who brought it in, Luk Ah Choi. It was passed through the Jeh family until it reached one named Jeh Seh 謝蛇, whose staff skills rivaled Wong Fei Hung during the era. Jeh Seh later teamed up with one of Wong's disciples called Leung Fook and opened up a school teaching the staff, becoming one of the most prominent staffs of southern China.

Jeh had many students but his successor was Chui Jeung 崔章, Choi Lei Fut disciple of both Tam Sam (Buk Sing) and Chan Ngau Sing (Hung Sing). Chui passed it to many but was carried on primarily through 2 students; one was his son Chui Gwong Yeun 崔廣源, and the other whose name I forget taught Chan On 陳安, Buk Sing master who seems to have highly modified the staff and introduced it to the Buk Sing system. I learned it through Chui Gwong Yeun.

Ive heard that Jau Ga's form called Jau Ga Baat Gwa Gwun 周家八卦棍 is actually a combination of both Ng Long Baat Gwa Gwun and Jeh Ga Baat Gwa Gwun. Somebody correct me if Im wrong.



Ng Long Baat Gwa Gwun is very sophisticated and would improve many systems of kung fu. But it is still a Hung Ga weapon (though admitted not originally) and shouldnt be re-labeled under a different system. If Hung Ga adopted Sup Ji Kau Da and called it the "Hung Ga version" then they would never hear the end of it from Choi Lei Fut. Respect the source!

[Shaolindynasty]

But it is still a Hung Ga weapon (though admitted not originally) and shouldnt be re-labeled under a different system.

If it's admittedly not originally hung ga then why would hung ga have more a right to claim it as their own then any other system?

Look, I respect the source of my martial arts. I am all about tradition and paying homage to those who have contributed to my martial skills. I labeled it the clf version of ng long bat gwa gwun beacause i do it with a clf flavor and it's been part of our system for several generations. Had i not labeled it that way I would have most likely had comments from a hung kuen practitioner saying i was doing it wrong because it didn't have hung kuen flavor.

Also on top of that I am not sure that the set was passed to us by a hung kuen practitioner, so why would I label it as such

The label is not intended to disrespect and the source is respected.

My intention with this thread was for people to discuss southern long staff techniques not the history of specific sets. Sorry if there has been confusion

[hskwarrior]

I labeled it the clf version of ng long bat gwa gwun beacause i do it with a clf flavor and it's been part of our system for several generations.

It's the same with the Yuen Hai lineage having a northern 5 animal form (from which i hear is rare as hell) but now that we're approaching a century for this form being in my lineage it has been CLFitized like a mo fo. all the techniques in it can be found in CLF as well.

[soulfist]

If it's admittedly not originally hung ga then why would hung ga have more a right to claim it as their own then any other system?

I suppose not only because it doesnt seem to exist outside of the Hung Ga system, but also it has been in the Hung Ga system from the style's founder Luk Ah Choi and redeveloped by the successive generations up until Wong Fei Hung, who is the man that gave us the current version that you are practicing.

Also on top of that I am not sure that the set was passed to us by a hung kuen practitioner, so why would I label it as such?

Ng Long Baat Gwa Gwun was a weapon that never had a system, until Hung Ga. I do both Hung Ga and CLF and dont see any CLF flavor within that performance, nor a single modification from the Hung Ga version of Wong Fei Hung from which it came however many generations ago.


Dont mind me being trivial, Im like this. Your execution was good and no criticism here. I understand why you labeled it CLF Version though, but I dont need to agree with that nor you with my saying so. ... but I am sorry the thread got off track.

[soulfist]

To bring focus back in the right direction, my comment that I see no clf flavor maybe goes back to my friends comment that "weapons know no family". I often see fist forms with their respective flavors, but weapon forms no.

I think what makes Ng Long Baat Gwa Gwun complete is the 2-man form, which polishes up the small details and timing. There are 2 versions of this, one developed by Lam Sai Wing and one developed by Dang Fong, both highly educational.

Ng Long Baat Gwa Gwun was originally a spear and can double as such. The spear version of the form is much newer even though it actually was a spear in the beginning. Its ironic that the representative southern staff that spawned many other southern staffs was originally a northern spear!