Do-it-Yourself Wooden Dummy

[Ernie]

he my dummy has been sitting on the floor in my apt for 5 years never bothered to put it up [ didn't want to drive my neighbors crazy and the stands are just to big ,
wondering if anyone has come up with some small space saver stands that still keep it a [LIVE] dummy , I have seen some fixed metal ones but the dummy would have no play and that just sucks

thanks in advance guys
Ernie

[Phil Redmond]

he my dummy has been sitting on the floor in my apt for 5 years never bothered to put it up [ didn't want to drive my neighbors crazy and the stands are just to big ,
wondering if anyone has come up with some small space saver stands that still keep it a [LIVE] dummy , I have seen some fixed metal ones but the dummy would have no play and that just sucks

thanks in advance guys
Ernie

Forum member Curtis (C.A.G.) make dummies/arms, and portable stands. He made one for me that I can put in my car. It is very alive as well. I'll email you a jpeg of the stand.
Phil

[Ernie]

Forum member Curtis (C.A.G.) make dummies/arms, and portable stands. He made one for me that I can put in my car. It is very alive as well. I'll email you a jpeg of the stand.
Phil

cool hook me up phil and a link for curtis

[Tom Kagan]

I've also found it rather peculiar regarding the incredible complexity of some dummy stands.

I don't have personal experience with it, but this stand seems both interesting and rather elegant in its engineering.
http://little-raven.com/RS/MA/Jong.html#anchor767140

On a related note, while I agree a dummy with a certain liveliness is a much, much better "partner", a dummy with a completely dead trunk also has its own unique qualities which could be beneficial to training purposes. It's usually the dummies in between those two points that suck.

[Ernie]

Thanks guys ,
I have been in contact with a few people , even found a guy that will custom build you a hand carved hardwood dummy with you school logo for $400

i'm on the hunt for the Koo Sang specs !!!

keep up the suggestions

[Phil Redmond]

Here's the dummy stand.
Phil

[stonecrusher69]

Phil..I like that stand do you have that one? Is it stable? do you know what he's charging?

[Phil Redmond]

Phil..I like that stand do you have that one? Is it stable? do you know what he's charging?

Yes it's very stable. I can disassemble it and put in in the back seat of my car. I take it to the park as you see in the picture. What I like about it is that it moves when you strike it but it doesn't fall over. He attached the stand to a PVC dummy that I already had. The dummies Curtis makes has springs in the back. Mine doesn't. I just checked the member's list and he uses Curtis here. You should PM him to get more details. He can also make arms, legs, wooden BJD, etc. I have Koo Sang dummy and I had him make extra arms so my students won't damage the original arms.
Phil

[dfl]

On a related note, while I agree a dummy with a certain liveliness is a much, much better "partner", a dummy with a completely dead trunk also has its own unique qualities which could be beneficial to training purposes. It's usually the dummies in between those two points that suck.

Could you elucidate on what beneficial qualities a dead dummy may provide? Not being a connoisseur of dummies, I am at a loss to find any usefulness to a totally dead dummy. By dead, do you mean totally rigid in all aspects, or is there still play at the limbs?

[curtis]

Hello everyone.

And thank you Phil, for the kind words. ;-)

I've been talking to Ernie, about how to make his own dummy stand.I have made many different stands over the years. (but that's not why Im replying. I don't want to toot my own horn.) the reason why I am replying is to first say thanks, and secondly is to perhaps help on the last question.

"totally dead dummy. By dead, do you mean totally rigid in all aspects, or is there still play at the limbs?"
dfl

The dummies origins are somewhat shaky, but most draw a line back to the sholin temples. I really don't know what they had or didn't have there.
the dead dummy was a solid tree truck that was sunk in the ground, the body didn't move, so It was known as a dead body. (I'm not sure for sure but...) I do believe the arms and leg had a little play in them. But the body did not .
later, Some one (KooSand/ William Cheung, Williams brother.) had the dummy re-made and put on a stand so it could be moved. this stand gave the dummy more play, or aliveness, than the berried tree did, So Yip Man called an Alive dummy.
at least that's how I understand it. (there are two other people who also clamed responsibly for making the dummy, but at this time I cant think of there names.But know there may be others not stated.)
The mook jong is a great training tool. Today's dummies are being made by more highly skilled craftsman than ever before, The more people who get involved the more things change.
Ive made my own changes to the ones I make, Some like it some don't. its very much like WingChun its self. There is no one, exact way to see what is and why it is being done, each master sees things slightly differently, Each adds there own view of the Art. IS this Bad? I think it is good, But it makes things somewhat complicated.Depending on your view,or teachers view.of WHAT IS Wing Chung.

C.A.G.

[dfl]

Hello everyone.


the dead dummy was a solid tree truck that was sunk in the ground, the body didn't move, so It was known as a dead body. (I'm not sure for sure but...) I do believe the arms and leg had a little play in them. But the body did not .

C.A.G.

Curtis,

Thank you for your comments. I am aware of the old style dummies being buried in the ground. I have seen PN's dummy (on tape) and am somewhat familiar with the YKS dummy setup. But even in those cases, they make sure the hole in the ground is big enough so there's enough play on the trunk so the dummy rocks back and forth when hit. So I am still wondering what "dead" means to Tom and what kind of usefulness one can derive from it.

[Ernie]

Dead is just that dead [ no recoil ] some dummys are sluggish [ slow timing ] those suck to , some to tight , this might as well be dead

it also comes down to how you use it and your understanding [creativity and imagination ]

some use it as heavy bag and get there rocks off banging it [ to much power over commitment habits ]
some use it as a speed bag whoopee I can do my dummy form in 60sec , well your a dumb @ss since you missed the whole point on developing functional alignment
this takes giving the neurological system and body mechanics time to sink in

yet others more traditional types keep a smooth steady flow with measured power release for this the need some recoil to send there power into the dummy and not keep it in there hands
this is the best "basic'' approach

for this you need a live dummy

a step above the basic approach is understanding timing and half beats , being able to send power into the dummy and move into your next position before the recoil catches you

you learn to not just send but receive add to or stall the dummys motion just like a person [ with some focused imagination ]

for this you really need a live dummy with the right type of recoil

so I guess it really depends on you

are you a person with a hard on for pounding power
a speed freak
a traditionalist
or a creative thinker with imagination and feel

another way to look at is the difference between a dead fixed drill or a live flowing drill

[YongChun]

Wang Kiu in Holland used the term "Live Dummy" to refer to the two people version of the dummy that he said Yip Man taught him in a restaurant. In this version, one side throws punches and the other side goes through the dummy movements.

A good live dummy by the other definition feels like playing a good instrument. The recoil is just right and the sound is just right. The dummy is not too loose and not too firm. Hitting a tree with arms sticking out of it, just doesn't give the same good feeling. If you do a double palm hit to someone's stomach which causes him to bend forward to expose the head, the the timing and feeling of that and doing that on a good dummy is similar.

With a good dummy it's a joy to train on it but with a bad one you wll tend not to use it too much.

Ray

[curtis]

dfl

both Ernie's and Rays comments are nice and to the point.
I found an article stating almost the same things as these two arts stated.

"The Wang Kiu lineage also trains a partner version of the Dummy which they refer to as the "Live Dummy." Other lineages call the suspended dummy the "Live Dummy" as compared to the one planted in the ground. I don't know if the "Live Dummy" is Wang Kiu's training procedure or if it comes from Yip Man? However it is logical and can be thought up my any smart person. There can be many variations too."
From http://www.springtimesong.com

As Ray stated ( and this article did .) there are many different ways to use the wooden man dummy.
I was taught that the dummy was suppose to be a personal training parker, Everything you know, can be and should be used on the dummy. Flow,and proper powerlines are my primary goal. as well as depth control (for striking),and having the ability to maintain a proper powerline (or base) while moving. I have many different drills to work on the dummy, from closing from a distance , to working on proper line work of all my techniques,(from lop soa, fook soa, bil jee, pak soa...) can and should be applied on the dummy.
For me the ability to adapt and train those neuro-responses are the utmost importance.
The 108 and 116 move forums are great, and I'm not tiring to belittle them, I just believe that a free form stile can offer a lot to those who train on the mook jong.
A free flowing exercise is what I stress. (for my own private training.)
but thats just me.
have a good night.

[El Tejon]

Ernie, years ago when I had an apartment, I mounted my mook in a corner of the living room in a half-version of the stand that you see from Ip Man schools (wall to wall, not just on one wall). Lubed it with some spary on polymer/silicon lube that I used on my pistols.

It worked out really well (had to watch it on 2nd set kick or my head would hit wall, but that was good training to stand up). When I moved out, I fixed the holes and sanded down the dry wall. Landlord never said anything.

Sifu Redmon, wow, that's brilliant! Thanks for posting that photo (I'm stealing this idea, just so you know).