New Videos from the Bagua Historical Swordsmanship Project: Chopping Sabre vs. Butter

[gilbride100]

New Videos from the Bagua Historical Swordsmanship Project: Chopping Sabre vs. Butterfly Knives, and Bagua Knife Experiment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mallewEmmvo

This bout is part of the Bagua Historical Swordsmanship Project, a side-project of Cateran Society president Chris Thompson. In this video, Chris is using the chopping sabre method of Yin Fu Baguazhang against the butterfly knives of Combined Combatives instructor Al Giusto.

Bagua Knife Experiment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUbET7hzBOE

In the study of history, a “commonplace” is a statement that has been repeated so many times that it is no longer questioned- almost everyone takes it as a fact, without ever checking for themselves if it’s really true. “Commonplaces” are a big problem in the martial arts. One often hears seemingly authoritative statements made by respected instructors that have actually never been tested or checked with primary sources to determine their validity. People often become attached to their favorite commonplaces, holding onto them in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

One of the purposes of the Bagua Historical Swordsmanship Project is to take no commonplace at face value, but to check and see what really happens. I expect to find that some of them are true, some of them are false, and with some of them it depends on context. In this video, I’m checking out the commonplace that the principles of Bagua weapons usage are contained in the empty-hand forms of the art, and that it should be possible to use Bagua weapons without specific training in them as long as you train in the palm changes. To test this notion, I fought a bout with rubber knives against an opponent using a different form of knife-work. My goal was to use my knife with a method based on the Yin Fu Bagua penetrating palms. Although I’ve done a fair amount of knife work in general, I have no Bagua-specific knife training and am simply improvising based on my practice of the palm changes. You can judge the results for yourself. Is this commonplace true or false- or something in between?

Two caveats are in order. One is that a single experiment against a single opponent doesn’t really prove anything- it’s just a step in the right direction. The second is that a knife vs. knife duel such as we are depicting in this bout is something that can only happen by mutual consent, the granting of which would be proof of suicidal insanity and/or stupidity. So this should not be seen as a “self defense” type of situation, but more as a “proof of concept” experiment. If it’s really true that the Bagua empty-hand forms contain the basic skills of Bagua weapons work, I should be able to do okay in this bout without any specific Bagua knife training, and I should be able to do so while retaining a Bagua “flavor” to some extent.

You can decide for yourself if I succeeded, but whether I did or not isn‘t really the point. The point is that we should never accept anything at face value merely because we heard it first from someone we respect. We should try to find out for ourselves. This attitude is becoming more and more common in traditional martial arts, yet it still meets with a surprising amount of resistance. My contribution to the debate is to apply empirical methods to the historical Bagua weapons- rather than relying on oral tradition about “the way things were” I want to see for myself to the extent that I can. In this way I hope to get closer to the truth behind the tradition.

[Grumblegeezer]

As a long-time student of Wing Chun and Eskrima I found both those videos profoundly painful to watch. The manner in which the demonstrators approached these encounters was so far removed from how these weapons were intended to be used...or probably would be used in combat, that I cannot imagine extrapolating any useful information whatsoever from this, er ...play. --Sorry.

[ironclaw1981]

As a long-time student of Wing Chun and Eskrima I found both those videos profoundly painful to watch. The manner in which the demonstrators approached these encounters was so far removed from how these weapons were intended to be used...or probably would be used in combat, that I cannot imagine extrapolating any useful information whatsoever from this, er ...play. --Sorry.

I totally agree, that was so bad its almost pitifully funny!!

[David Jamieson]

The lack of understanding displayed is palpable. Seriously.
The best thing these fellows could do would be to take up fencing and learn how to attack with intention and remain somewhat safe. then revisit the specialized weapons and learn what they can about them.

Having a weapon doesn't mean you are suddenly blessed with understanding how to use it. Even firearms require some limited training before you can start making decent groupings and actually hitting targets.

Also, they need a Pell. lol It changes your body flow when you use full force strikes.

[gilbride100]

What is your experience with weapons- solo forms? Padded weapon "sparring"? The fact is, if you don't bout regularly with full-weight weapons, your opinion is worth nothing.

[David Jamieson]

What is your experience with weapons- solo forms? Padded weapon "sparring"? The fact is, if you don't bout regularly with full-weight weapons, your opinion is worth nothing.

My experience with classical weaponry is fair to extensive depending on the relative education of who I am with.

I am quite adept at all forms of fencing, use of long, single side and double bladed weapons. I am also versed in Staff and short blunted weapons such as maces, hardwhips and the like.

The training displayed in the video is virtually useless in that format. I would suggest they join a club that practices with wooden weapons, proper armour if using "live" weapons and a good course in using devices such as a pell to develop strength and weapon retention.

[gilbride100]

Well, all I can say is that my own experience with weapons use and training is extensive. Chinese arts are cross-training for me rather than my primary style. Within my primary style of Highland broadsword fencing I've been training, teaching and competing for twelve years. I have fought any number of bouts with full-weight weapons against practitioners and instructors from many different styles. And one thing I've noticed is that the vast majority of CMA practitioners are living in fantasy-land when it comes to the actual use of the historical Chinese weapons. A handful of CMA practitioners are working very hard to revive the art of fencing with these weapons, and are very good at it. Most, however, really don't know the first thing about it. That doesn't stop them from sharing their opinions, though- quite the opposite. People who actually know a thing or two about how to use these weapons consistently express very different opinions from the ones I see on CMA forums. There's a reason for that, and it's that most CMA folks seem to be basing their opinions of weapon use on their experience with solo forms, or on sparring with lightweight padded weapons that behave nothing like the real thing. So you get people who are good at playing tag with nerf weapons or at performing elaborate forms with no opponent, and the second they see anyone trying to actually bout with realistic weapons, they pronounce it "useless" or "painful to watch." Why? Because they wouldn't know what good weapon-fencing looks like in the first place.

[David Jamieson]

Weapon application is driven by principles of use associated with the weapon.
Not so much by forms practice. There is a lot of erroneous material in weapons forms to begin with, but if we look at any set, we will see a limited amount of applications expressed in a variety of ways.

Still, a single sided blade can draw, thrust, parry, turn, rotate and flat strike.

These same principles apply to double edge and the emphasis now changes to focus on thrust instead of slash, where as with the machete or big knife weapon is most effectively used for slashing (drawing).

So, a pu di dao has an extension to it that makes it superior when dealing with short weapons simply because you have a length advantage, can keep your distance and effectively use the weapon at range.

My opinion on those vids is that those individuals would get more value out of sparring with wooden versions of the weapons, weighted if they want the authentic weight and to move with full intention.

I would also suggest adding a Pell or dummy to the training as far as striking drills go. there is nothing that will show you were you lack in footing or retention of a weapon more than fully striking with it and you can't really do that with a training partner, hence the value of the device.

Using live weapons, slowly in the manner as depicted in those videos is ineffective and could indeed develop bad habits of usage. BUT, I will add that these weapons are basically hobby interest only and are not viable weapons in the reality of day to day use of weapons.

Classical weapons are interesting and are fun to learn. They are strictly a hobby though because they have lost 99% of their military value to guns. in the last 500 years.

In the last century, they have become completely outmoded and are only part of dress uniforms now. Knives are more of a survival tool than a weapon these days.

So, for societies of creative anachronism, sword training is great. For reality it's a hobby that is more worthwhile than fapping or video gaming in my opinon. lol, but I am not so out of touch with reality that I don't see that my practice of these things is outmoded and not in keeping with the reality of combat in modern times.

[EarthDragon]

gillbride

Well, all I can say is that my own experience with weapons use and training is extensive. Within my primary style of Highland broadsword fencing I've been training, teaching and competing for twelve years. I have fought any number of bouts with full-weight weapons against practitioners and instructors from many different styles.

dude you cant be serious........................... is that you in the video? and this is your extensive expereince shown in that vid?

and to boot you consider yourself a teacher and have been doing it for 12 years? not to sound mean but pehaps you should ask YOUR teacher for your money back.

[bawang]

And one thing I've noticed is that the vast majority of CMA practitioners are living in fantasy-land when it comes to the actual use of the historical Chinese weapons.

you are right. but your video is also very bad.

[kristcaldwell]

any issues pertaining to skill (or lack thereof) aside; it would seem rather childish and short-sighted of you to post videos on a forum for peer-review and then tell everyone that their opinion is not valid because of lack of experience.

one has to wonder if you would be so discrediting if we all left favorable reviews of you and your "abilities."

[bawang]

chinese saber is not used for dueling its for flanking heavy spear infantry. it doesnt need "proving". theres no technique involved. the japanese tai dao is superior and chinese saber borrow heavily from the japanese.

chinese straight sword is nearly useless. chinese straight sword was extinct, then someone in ming dynasty recovered a manual from korea.

[gilbride100]

This is a more typical example of what I do, using Western historical weapons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-kW5wrwXZU

And yes, I am willing to put my skills with these weapons up against anyone. Here is an example of a bout between me and a well-known instructor of German longsword:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeLQfbi4KAM

I cross-train in Bagua and, as an experienced Western historical fencer I naturally find it interesting to bout with Chinese weapons as well. That particular bout was done relatively slowly for safety and then was edited in slo-mo as well, which seems not to have been understood by everyone that viewed it. As you can see from these additional videos I bout at a range of speeds and intensity levels.

It's too bad that people here didn't enjoy the bout, but no I would not consider most CMA practitioners to be qualified to judge it. Other historical fencers are in a much better position to know what they're looking at. My reputation as a teacher and a combatant in Western historical fencing circles can be discovered easily by asking around.

[IronWeasel]

New Videos from the Bagua Historical Swordsmanship Project: Chopping Sabre vs. Butterfly Knives, and Bagua Knife Experiment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mallewEmmvo

This bout is part of the Bagua Historical Swordsmanship Project, a side-project of Cateran Society president Chris Thompson. In this video, Chris is using the chopping sabre method of Yin Fu Baguazhang against the butterfly knives of Combined Combatives instructor Al Giusto.

Bagua Knife Experiment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUbET7hzBOE

.

Dang....

Video 1 looks like two teenagers out in the yard pretending to play World of Warcraft . I'm guessing the guy with the Butterfly Knives is an Elf.



Video 2 looks like a Bagua video that keeps buffering, because he keeps stopping and standing there in a static stance. The Elf that you're trying to stab must be first level, or else he would have beat you already and taken your gold.


I'm glad that you two are, at least, outside...you could both use the exercise.

Protip #1: wear shorts only, and go full force with a pair of sharpie markers for knives. Much more realistic.

You're welcome.

[gilbride100]

Wow. I'm going to bow out of this conversation now, because the level of *******-ness is just too much for me to deal with. So a bunch of self-haters who wish to God they were doing MMA don't like my video. I guess I'll just have to learn to live with that.