Chi Sau/Sao Et Cetera

[Vajramusti]

I do, however, see why the Gaan Sau was perhaps not in the 'original' SNT. It chases hands instead of attacking - so it makes sense that we wouldn't see it until later on (like Biu Jee).

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I don't think Gaan when done right chases hands any more than other motions.

joy

[sihing]

Though the Tan Da is seen in many branches of WC I totally agree with you. I guess it's taught to teach begginners to use both hands at one time. I'm not saying that it wouldn't work but you'd have to have a serious Tan to stop a poweful round punch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-upAD5F85Kc , then why are you teaching it here???

The problem I see in this vid is a massive amount of chasing hands, your point of contact (center) is facing away from your opponent, so now you've lost facing which is critcal in good WC application.

Luk sau rolling in chi sau teaches two live arm actions. In WC both arms are live, the power is always 50/50 in both sides, just one side is usually ahead of the other, as there is a cycling and recycling of striking happening. I don't teach wrong things like tan da vs round punch to teach that apsect.

James

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-upAD5F85Kc , then why are you teaching it here???

The problem I see in this vid is a massive amount of chasing hands, your point of contact (center) is facing away from your opponent, so now you've lost facing which is critcal in good WC application.

Luk sau rolling in chi sau teaches two live arm actions. In WC both arms are live, the power is always 50/50 in both sides, just one side is usually ahead of the other, as there is a cycling and recycling of striking happening. I don't teach wrong things like tan da vs round punch to teach that apsect.

James

Because it's part of the curriculum for beginners like I said. Also, I never teach to chase hands. What you might think is chasing hands isn't.
Is :51 here chasing hands?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ckHE4X8yUk

Tan Da 6:24 - 6:34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIGXa...eature=related


No, it's not.

[sihing]

Because it's part of the curriculum for beginners like I said. Also, I never teach to chase hands. What you might think is chasing hands isn't.
Is :51 here chasing hands?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ckHE4X8yUk

Tan Da 6:24 - 6:34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIGXa...eature=related


No, it's not.

Then what's your definition of chasing hands, I'm super curious now, cause if your vid didn't show it like I said, I'd like to know what is.

Also, why teach beginners something you do not believe in, doesn't make sense???

SOIF is not a good rep of WSLVT, he even said that himself

James

[Phil Redmond]

Then what's your definition of chasing hands, I'm super curious now, cause if your vid didn't show it like I said, I'd like to know what is.

Also, why teach beginners something you do not believe in, doesn't make sense???

SOIF is not a good rep of WSLVT, he even said that himself

James

You learn scales to play a melody. You learn an alphabet to create words. You don't fight with SLT but people teach it.
Also regarding using the wrist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHeSDTJ8Fpc

[Phil Redmond]

Then what's your definition of chasing hands, I'm super curious now, cause if your vid didn't show it like I said, I'd like to know what is.

Also, why teach beginners something you do not believe in, doesn't make sense???

SOIF is not a good rep of WSLVT, he even said that himself

James

And why make a video of something that isn't representative of something that doesn't represent what you teach.
Let me leave this alone. You win. OK?

[bennyvt]

i think it is down to listening to the literal word. I have meet and learnt off various WSL guys and they all say the same basic things. SOme can explain it better, some can show you. Each had learnt at a different time or sometimes the same and they all say that WSL changed and taught the forms differently. Mainly the dummy. If you look at it with an open mind you can see the progression of how he taught people.
I have also seen and meet a few example that graham talks about. But it doesn't mean that if something is said in a different way it doesn't have merit.
I teaching you tell people different things depending on several factors. More body cues. Not how you would technically do it in a biomechanical sense but how it should feel or a certain thing to get the student to do what you want.
Example, one tai chi guy I taught I had to get him to tighten up and use heaps of force. A body building guy T taught had to relax and use no force. If either one doesn't understand that it is a body cue they will teach everyone exactly what they were told. Not how to do it.
Joy, Barry was the brother in law you metioned.

[Vajramusti]

i think it is down to listening to the literal word. I have meet and learnt off various WSL guys and they all say the same basic things. SOme can explain it better, some can show you. Each had learnt at a different time or sometimes the same and they all say that WSL changed and taught the forms differently. Mainly the dummy. If you look at it with an open mind you can see the progression of how he taught people.
I have also seen and meet a few example that graham talks about. But it doesn't mean that if something is said in a different way it doesn't have merit.
I teaching you tell people different things depending on several factors. More body cues. Not how you would technically do it in a biomechanical sense but how it should feel or a certain thing to get the student to do what you want.
Example, one tai chi guy I taught I had to get him to tighten up and use heaps of force. A body building guy T taught had to relax and use no force. If either one doesn't understand that it is a body cue they will teach everyone exactly what they were told. Not how to do it.
Joy, Barry was the brother in law you metioned.

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Benny- on Barry-the machine- I know..I couldn't think of his name when I was hitting the keys.

BTW I understand WSL changing things and also adjusting his teaching for the student.Good teachers do that.And. they evolve themselves.I have nothing but respect for WSL but some later generation students do him an injustice by giving the impression that he only understood Ip Man's wing chun or more tiresome-ly that one has to go to Germany now to understand true wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

Though the Tan Da is seen in many branches of WC I totally agree with you. I guess it's taught to teach begginners to use both hands at one time. I'm not saying that it wouldn't work but you'd have to have a serious Tan to stop a poweful round punch.

As it was explained to me, tan 'da' turning facing 'drill'....is to face doing tan and a jum punch, tan being the retraction and reloading of the previous jum punch ....tan isnt a block laterally off the line, but it has been shown to move forwards as the person moves sideways

We also show the tan just facing forwards, as the other arm punches out the tan is the recovery back to elbow in...not a block

tan and jum not tan da the tan is the opposite jum [having turned 45 to face] returning back to elbow in 'tan' ...its actually a simple facing drill for solo work. not to stand in the middle of the guys arms turning to block etc... we all know that result, I have a fractured nose from it some learn the hard way needless to say I dont like that thinking.

[k gledhill]

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I don't think Gaan when done right chases hands any more than other motions.

joy

Gaun wrist is on the line....if it stays on the line when we
face (we only turn to face) it wont over swing and 'chase'.
hit gaun hit, SLT cycle, when you do tan make a fist....

[LSWCTN1]

There is only one centerline and the quickest way between two points is a straight line. GH

so why dont we strike in that wasy all of the time then?

[k gledhill]

We do...except bil geet

[LoneTiger108]

Sheesh! This thread is just a load of noise

[sihing]

You learn scales to play a melody. You learn an alphabet to create words. You don't fight with SLT but people teach it.
Also regarding using the wrist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHeSDTJ8Fpc

SNT is not a fighting form, none of them really are, maybe BJ. SNT teaches the basic mechanics and structures.***Mechanics are the way we move, how we perform or move with a tan, fok or bong sau (do you lead it with the wrist or elbow?). ****Structure is the stability in our base, how the body is connected to allow us to deliver and receive force, if you have no base you have no Kung Fu. Very basic and static training, it allows one to individually correct basic movement. If for e.g. in dan chi sau training your fok sau elbow keeps coming out, you fix it in SNT practice, focus on it and then it will correct it's behavior in chi sau. That's it, SNT is not fighting nor does it teach application.

Now regarding using wrists in your vid, here your talking about your opponents wrists, and yes this may be the case as you may have to progress from wrist to elbow control. This in not what we're really talking about though. In our line we function everything thru our elbows, when I punch you, the intention and power of it are in the elbow, hard to explain here (Kev G has a million X, people still don't get it), easy to show someone in person, once you feel it you will know. Met up with Kevin G Phil, if you are as open minded as you say do this one thing, your perpective may change

James

p.s. Still don't understand why you teach Tan Da when you said it's a low percentage move??

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . .I have nothing but respect for WSL but some later generation students do him an injustice by giving the impression that he only understood Ip Man's wing chun or more tiresome-ly that one has to go to Germany now to understand true wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

I also have the utmost respect for Si-Bak Wong and I feel that "some" WSL people here are implying that they have the Holy Grail and the rest of us are lost.