Learn Multiple Kung Fu Styles, what are the effects?

[ginosifu]

Over the years I have learn 5 different kung fu styles. I do not consider myself a master of anything but I teach them. Also I have done seminars and spent time with many other Sifu but did not learn a specific system form them.

Each system has it's own uniqueness, each has it's own methods and theory. I learned from different teachers and each teacher had their own thought on fighting / application / theory and form flavor etc etc.

In the end.... I have been affected by all of them. Every style I teach has been affected by all of them. While teaching Hung Gar... it is still Hung Gar but because of the blend of teachers it has tiny nuances from each of my styles. Each of the systems I teach has been affected by my greed early in my Kung Fu career.

My question is:

Is it wrong that my styles are a little affected by the flavor of the others?

Will each system end up not being taught correctly because it has been spiced up by my other teachers influence?

your thoughts

ginosifu

[David Jamieson]

Yep there is a crossover effect and the shapes change somewhat as the entire body of knowledge grows.

I found myself moving further and further away from textbook postures and towards the principles behind the ideas of the motions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Historically most ( if not all) MA trained in more than one style and it worked well for them, as it continues to work well for most.
Sure there are some that find a style and stick with it and no other and theyare fine with that, but personally I feel they are missing on a huge facet in their MA training and that is experiencing the differences in tactitcs, concepts and principels of other system that can make their system even better ( or at worse prepare them for meeting said systems).
As for cross over I don't think it is that much of an issue, every person customizes their system to an extent ( or at least they should).
Since you mention Hung Kuen, lets take it as an example:
A person who is 6-4 and 230 will have a certain hand, and a person that is 5-4 and 130 will have another.
A person coming in with NO prior MA experience will have a certain hand while someone with prior MA will have another.
Just the way it is.
The pros far outweight the cons

[B-Rad]

Over the years I have learn 5 different kung fu styles. I do not consider myself a master of anything but I teach them. Also I have done seminars and spent time with many other Sifu but did not learn a specific system form them.

Each system has it's own uniqueness, each has it's own methods and theory. I learned from different teachers and each teacher had their own thought on fighting / application / theory and form flavor etc etc.

In the end.... I have been affected by all of them. Every style I teach has been affected by all of them. While teaching Hung Gar... it is still Hung Gar but because of the blend of teachers it has tiny nuances from each of my styles. Each of the systems I teach has been affected by my greed early in my Kung Fu career.

My question is:

Is it wrong that my styles are a little affected by the flavor of the others?

Will each system end up not being taught correctly because it has been spiced up by my other teachers influence?

your thoughts

ginosifu

Honestly, the most skilled martial artists I've ever met were skilled in multiple styles. And it's not unusual for some to allow their other styles to affect each other. Just looking at all of the Liu Yun Qiao students as an obvious example... their baji quan seeps into pretty much everything they do whether it's taiji or mantis. I'll always be affected by chang quan. Entire branches of other systems exist by combining what was learned from multiple teachers.

[ginosifu]

Personally I think that cross training has made me a better MA, However my main concern is:

Are the original styles contaminated? Is my Hung Gar forever ruined because I have cross trained in other systems. Does my monkey style look like the original monkey or is it now a Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Shuai Chiao, Tai Chi Monkey style?

ginosifu

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Historically most ( if not all) MA trained in more than one style and it worked well for them, as it continues to work well for most.
Sure there are some that find a style and stick with it and no other and theyare fine with that, but personally I feel they are missing on a huge facet in their MA training and that is experiencing the differences in tactitcs, concepts and principels of other system that can make their system even better ( or at worse prepare them for meeting said systems).
As for cross over I don't think it is that much of an issue, every person customizes their system to an extent ( or at least they should).
Since you mention Hung Kuen, lets take it as an example:
A person who is 6-4 and 230 will have a certain hand, and a person that is 5-4 and 130 will have another.
A person coming in with NO prior MA experience will have a certain hand while someone with prior MA will have another.
Just the way it is.
The pros far outweight the cons

To kind of reiterate what Ronin said, people learn, practice, and teach systems according to their peronalities, strengths, and desires. In other words, an instructor from the same system may teach much differently than another instructor from that same system. Everyone puts their own touch on things learned and things done, just like anything else.

Two auto mechanics may have different methods to troubleshoot and fix a car, but so long as the job gets done it really doesn't matter.

I personally feel knowledge is something we should all continue to strive for and it is possible to train multiple styles of Kung Fu or other martial arts, but I do feel a person should have a base art they train in for at least 3 years before doing so. I have trained in multiple styles, nothing as long as my training in Pai Lum however I have always found something I learned or improved upon in each system. Refining and improving techniques often is more beneficial than learning new ones.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Personally I think that cross training has made me a better MA, However my main concern is:

Are the original styles contaminated? Is my Hung Gar forever ruined because I have cross trained in other systems. Does my monkey style look like the original monkey or is it now a Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Shuai Chiao, Tai Chi Monkey style?

ginosifu

You are assuming that the "original" version ( whatever it was) was NOT tainted by whatever other systems it's originator also knew.
The only way one can "ruin" a system of H2H fighting is to make it less effective.
Going back to HK, I have seen a dozen of different versions of the iron wire ( as an example) and since I never saw Lam doing it in person I have NO idea what the original way was, does it matter?
Nope, not at all.
Why?
Because the HK of Today is no the HK of 100 years ago or even 50 years ago, because systems evolve as people and circumstances evolve.
I know of a HK teacher that teaches the tiger and crane with far less movement that typical so that his students don't need as much space.
My own WK sifu loved to incorporate western boxing into his HK and his students HK because he felt it accelerated the learning process.

[pateticorecords]

Yes, let's not forget that all martial arts studied today have been an evolution of cross training by those before us.

Think of your Martial Arts skills as the engineering of body mechanics and motion. If you find a more useful way to make something work, you will slowly start adjusting your movements to this new method.



If you do not evolve you become extinct... it's natural selection

[Jimbo]

Personally I think that cross training has made me a better MA, However my main concern is:

Are the original styles contaminated? Is my Hung Gar forever ruined because I have cross trained in other systems. Does my monkey style look like the original monkey or is it now a Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Shuai Chiao, Tai Chi Monkey style?

ginosifu

Nothing we do nowadays is going to look exactly like the founders looked like when they started these systems. Even most (all?) of the TCMA systems were essentially MMA's of their day. The founders combined what they felt were the best skills they could amass into a 'new' system. Then throughout the centuries, each new practitioner added/modified/deleted certain aspects to some degree or other.

I believe in cross-training because it's mostly what I've done throughout my MA life. But to me, cross-training is not just collecting 'a little of this & a little of that' from various systems, but striving to understand and incorporate whatever you can from whatever system you study. Once I began CMA, I tended to stick to one system, like Tanglangquan (N. Mantis) for years (about 10). When I took up CLF, I ended up switching styles and concentrating on that. I tried to keep up the TLQ as well, but both practices were too much; however, I have retained some of the principles of TLQ that worked for me, because they became an integrated part of me. They don't conflict with, but enhance my personal CLF. What's important is, can you make it work?

IMO, it's important to settle on a base system. Though mine changed, the shift felt natural. Even within the same system or the same school, nobody moves or fights exactly the same. You can tell they're the same style, but lots of factors make everyone's presentation/interpretation of the art different. And it's good to gain some experience in outside arts, even if you don't plan on making them a lifelong pursuit. The experiences I've had with boxing/kickboxing and BJJ were fun, and enhance your perspective on your chosen art(s).

As far as training/maintaining several complete(?) systems at once, IMO it's very difficult. In actual application, it's like having too much data to sift through.

[ginosifu]

Thanks everyone for your input. I agree with all of you that my experiences will affect all of my styles and that they will eventually become unique, but still contain the essence of the original system.

ginosifu

[Northwind]

I think your last statement is great.

It takes a while of cross-training to find your groove for sure. Although my mainstay is Northern Shaolin, my actual combat improved many years ago significantly by some training in Hung Gar - but then I became a BSL forms guy & Hung Gar fighter. Then there was the time I spent doing a little Jook Lum where I began to use that flavor of short power in all short range things I did.

But over time I was able to learn and smooth it out. The long-term pros are good. For me, however, when walking into a new style, it's still tough not to do things with BSL flavor, but again it just takes time.

Overall I think it's a good thing.

[shaolin_allan]

I've been doing wing chun off and on for six months now but I find myself wanting to do other styles also. If I start now learning from another sifu do you guys think i'd be fine? Whats the minimum amount of time u should do a base system before u cross train? especially one that can be learned faster like wing chun?

[ginosifu]

spend at least 3 or 4 years in one art form before mixing. Get the basics down for a couple of years and then re - evealuate the WC and see where you can go from there.

ginosifu

[bawang]

thats about 3 or 4 thousand dollars and the prime of your life gone evaluating

[Violent Designs]

thats about 3 or 4 thousand dollars and the prime of your life gone evaluating

lol

do hung ga maybe