Question for Hskwarrior

[CLFNole]

Yeah but records were not well kept back then. For years we all though my grandmother was born on February 12 and was 91. Well they somehow found another birth certificate recently and it turns out not only is she 92 but she was born on February 10th not the 12th.

Now lets go back into the 1800s when record keeping by your own admission was even worse and it is very possible the date could be wrong. Throw in the whole lunar calander thing and who knows.

Maybe Fut San had it wrong, nobody knows for sure.

And for the record I am not poking you. I enjoy constructive conversation. Stimulates the mind.

[hskwarrior]

Now lets go back into the 1800s when record keeping by your own admission was even worse and it is very possible the date could be wrong. Throw in the whole lunar calander thing and who knows.

Maybe Fut San had it wrong, nobody knows for sure.

Maybe King Mui got it wrong.

That is true. the record keeping was horrible, especially if you were members of the Hung Mun. The more you speak to the elders in your lineage they might tell you how Secrecy was paramount back then. A mere suspicion could get you killed instantly.

[CLFNole]

I understand that it was dangerous times but at the same time they were able to preserve their kung fu. One could easily believe they would have ways to secretly document their history also. Other styles did it. It's not like Hung Mun was exclusively CLF a lot of other southern styles had their hands in it as well...hung gar, hung fut, hop gar, etc...

[Jimbo]

Sometimes poking at can be a good thing, when it results in good info exchange or opinions.

I'm endlessly fascinated by the various branches of CLF. Though in the end it's all CLF.

Though my lineage under Sifu Primicias contains some Hung Sing (first through Howard Lee and later Doc-Fai Wong), and some Chan Family, our main lineage was through Sifu's main instructor, Chung Lem (a.k.a., John Lem). Sigung John Lem learned his CLF as a lay monk at the Wing Foon Monastery. The main emphasis is on 2-person application drills. There are relatively few hand forms; most are fairly short and are played like the application drills. They are unusual among the CLF sets I've seen, but of course are still clearly CLF.

I'm a bit ashamed to say that I don't know as much about the history of Master Lem's CLF as I probably should. I also admit that in the past, I was not as interested in the history of it. Which is why I prefer to read others' opinions and knowledge from their own research.

Anyway...please continue!

[CLFNole]

Jimbo:

I find most students that I teach at our school have little to no interest in our history. Only a small few have ever asked me anything. It is kind of sad but at the same time the world is changing so who knows maybe things will come full circle again.

[hskwarrior]

I understand that it was dangerous times but at the same time they were able to preserve their kung fu. One could easily believe they would have ways to secretly document their history also. Other styles did it. It's not like Hung Mun was exclusively CLF a lot of other southern styles had their hands in it as well...hung gar, hung fut, hop gar, etc...

About that....I really doubt the history got written as it went along. At some later point in the history of whatever, someone will want to start documenting as to not lose what they have. and yes, fut san has some documents in their museum was are from mostly chan ngau sing's time.

For example, I've been doing my CLF for about 30 years now, and only now do i want to document my time under Hung Sing. why? who knows, i may pass away tomorrow and if i don't do it now, no one will really know the truth when it comes to me as the subject. i never thought about documenting my experience as i went along because i was living it. i plan to create my own history though so the newer generations will know the truth about me.

I think documentation was an afterthought really.

Though my lineage under Sifu Primicias contains some Hung Sing (first through Howard Lee and later Doc-Fai Wong), and some Chan Family, our main lineage was through Sifu's main instructor, Chung Lem (a.k.a., John Lem). Sigung John Lem learned his CLF as a lay monk at the Wing Foon Monastery. The main emphasis is on 2-person application drills. There are relatively few hand forms; most are fairly short and are played like the application drills. They are unusual among the CLF sets I've seen, but of course are still clearly CLF.

I really like Nan Schwartz!

[hskwarrior]

I find most students that I teach at our school have little to no interest in our history. Only a small few have ever asked me anything. It is kind of sad but at the same time the world is changing so who knows maybe things will come full circle again.

not yet, but someone will want to know eventually.

[hskwarrior]

CLFNOLE, not sure if you answered me, but I asked why you felt Jeung Hung Sing learned quite a bit from Chan Heung?

I ask you this because if you stop and think about it, to what level did CLF evolve within its first five years? You have some basics, perhaps a few forms, maybe one a few weapons. And, if Chan Heung didn't create all the forms of his system, then how much do you think Jeung Yim actually picked up in such a relatively short time?

Our history states that at 17 years old he became a student of Monk Ching Cho and completed Fut Gar Kuen in 8 years time. 17 years old would have been in 1841. completing Fut Gar Kuen in 8 years time ended in 1849. Then per Ching Cho's instructions Jeung Yim went to Fut San.

Now let's look at what Chan Heung's personal account of Jeung Yim says:

Jeung Yim trained with him: Nothing documented.

How old was Jeung Yim when he came to him: Nothing Documented.

How long did Jeung Yim train under him: Nothing Documented.

When did Jeung Yim leave King Mui?: Nothing documented.

The Green Grass Monk?: Nothing Documented.

How Jeung Yim got the Hung Sing name?: Nothing Documented.

How long did Jeung Yim train with the Green Grass Monk? Nothing Documented.

Who sent Jeung Yim to Fut San? Nothing Documented.

The only thing documented by Chan Heung was that Jeung Hung Sing returned to Fut San in 1867 to re open his Hung Sing Kwoon. NOT that he sent him there to open a Chan Family school. the rest comes from 3rd generation master Chan Yiu Chi.

Now, the same questions about our founder coming from our own branch will state:

Jeung Yim trained with him: From 12-17 years old (1836-1841).

How old was Jeung Yim when he came to him: Twelve years old.

How long did Jeung Yim train under him: Five years. (1836-1841).

When did Jeung Yim leave King Mui?: 1841.

The Green Grass Monk?: Shaolin monk, co-founder of the Hung Mun.

How Jeung Yim got the Hung Sing name?: Monk Ching Cho gave it to him. Origin? Hung Mun.

How long did Jeung Yim train with the Green Grass Monk? 8 years.

Who sent Jeung Yim to Fut San and Why? Monk Ching Cho. To make contact with the Hung Mun elders in Fut San and start training their fighters to get ready for the Tai Ping Rebellion.

TIDBIT: Chan Din Yao opened his school in Fut San (1848) one year prior to Jeung Hung Sing arriving there in 1849. The two schools existed side by side all the way until Chan Din Yao lost his eyesite. Jeung Yim was given permission to take over the school, he wasn't assigned to do so. Also, whatever school name Chan Din Yao was using was taken down and replaced with Jeung Hung Sing's school name.

Since Jeung Yim was a student of Chan Heung you would expect to find something about that originating from Chan Heung. But it doesn't. So if we want to see an alternative account of our history we'd have to look at Chan Yiu Chi's account which was rejected many times by hung sing and buk sing elders.

Honestly, anyone who wanted to know Hung Sing history should go to the source...FUT SAN. I wouldn't go to McDonalds to ask how the Whopper is made.

[extrajoseph]

CLFNOLE, not sure if you answered me, but I asked why

Jeung Yim trained with him: Nothing documented.

How old was Jeung Yim when he came to him: Nothing Documented.

How long did Jeung Yim train under him: Nothing Documented.

When did Jeung Yim leave King Mui?: Nothing documented.

The Green Grass Monk?: Nothing Documented.

How Jeung Yim got the Hung Sing name?: Nothing Documented.

How long did Jeung Yim train with the Green Grass Monk? Nothing Documented.

Who sent Jeung Yim to Fut San? Nothing Documented.

Since Jeung Yim was a student of Chan Heung you would expect to find something about that originating from Chan Heung. But it doesn't. So if we want to see an alternative account of our history we'd have to look at Chan Yiu Chi's account which was rejected many times by hung sing and buk sing elders.

Honestly, anyone who wanted to know Hung Sing history should go to the source...FUT SAN. I wouldn't go to McDonalds to ask how the Whopper is made.

All these questions you asked are clearly documented by the Chan family archive and by the local historical records and the oral records from the birth place of Jeung Yim. If you are not going to believe the Chan family's written records then you have to find a reason why, why would Chan Yiu-Chi and the Chan family lied about Jeung Yim? And if they did, what are the alternative written primary sources and oral records?

McDonald and Burger King made the hamburgers famous, but the source of a hamburger lies not in the Sates, it came from Hamburg Germany, so you have to go there to find its history and not America. Besides, there are many many more varieties besides these two, we must not forget.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger

Jeung Yim came from Sun Hui in a village not very far from King Mui, and that was one of the reasons why Chan Heung accepted him as a disciple at Jeung's father's request (being one who came from the same district when they met in HK), so we must go back to his birthplace and King Mui and not Futsan to find the source of his CLF.

Even Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon have trouble accepting this idea of Jeung Yim being the co-founder of CLF, if you look at their website in a recent article written on the background as to the evolution of Hung Sing CLF, where it is written that Jeung Yim co-founded CLF with Chan Heung, it qualified itself at the end of the article by saying that the source of the claim is not from Futsan but from Chan Kam-Fai and his Sifu's overseas organizations and gave a list of names.

http://www.hongshengguan.com/Item/25.aspx

The question we have to ask ourselves is why would Chan Kam-Fai and his lot want to made up this Johnny-come-lately claim? What would they gain from changing the history of CLF? All this happened only after the 4th generation beginning in Hong Kong, before that, no one questioned Chan Heung taught Jeung Yim and he was a great martial artist and a pioneer of CLF who made Futsan Hung Sing famous.

[extrajoseph]

Well then Fut San should know Chan Hueng's birthday better than his own family? You can't on one hand say the Chan side knows nothing about Jeurng Yim's history then turn around and say you know theirs. Fair is fair.

Thanks Jimbo. Frank and I don't argue we discuss. I just play devil's advocate a bit. Now Frank and XJ...that is a different ballgame.

I have never considered Frank an enemy of any sort, he is as passionate about CLF as I am, but being a "banana" I am very proud of my own cultural heritage and I like to defend it, so when I see a non-thinking but ferocious pit bull like him, I like to play a little and not get bitten, that is all. No hard feelings.

After all these years, it is a bit like taking him for a walk every time he barks! How long has it been Frank? Must have been more than 10 years now, not counting all the posts you have deleted out of embarrassment.

CLFNole, you are just a nice guy, rocking the boat a little bit more so the journey is not so boring, welcome aboard! But I must say you are more Chinese than I am, giving Frank more face than I should have given him, but I can't help it, he is such fun to play with!

[hskwarrior]

All these questions you asked are clearly documented by the Chan family archive and by the local historical records and the oral records from the birth place of Jeung Yim. If you are not going to believe the Chan family's written records then you have to find a reason why, why would Chan Yiu-Chi and the Chan family lied about Jeung Yim? And if they did, what are the alternative written primary sources and oral records?

McDonald and Burger King made the hamburgers famous, but the source of a hamburger lies not in the Sates, it came from Hamburg Germany, so you have to go there to find its history and not America. Besides, there are many many more varieties besides these two, we must not forget.

What Chan family archive? you mean the one by Chan Yiu Chi? NO THANK YOU. I only care what Chan Heung wrote about his former student. I'll trust local fut san historians over your chan family ones ANYDAY.

you have to find a reason why, why would Chan Yiu-Chi and the Chan family lied about Jeung Yim?

We know Chan Yiu Chi wrote is incorrect, YOU figure it out. Keep your Yiu Chi records. LMAO.

And if they did, what are the alternative written primary sources and oral records

If i provided you with primary sources of our oral and anything written about our lineage you'd only shoot it down cause it wouldn't match what Chan Yiu Chi wrote down.

After all these years, it is a bit like taking him for a walk every time he barks! How long has it been Frank? Must have been more than 10 years now, not counting all the posts you have deleted out of embarrassment.

When i take you out for a walk its only to show off my chew toy!!! LOL. oh if i were embarrassed i'd disappear or something. But my little chew toy, i got a lock on you and i LOVE thrashing you around.

[hskwarrior]

Jeung Yim came from Sun Hui in a village not very far from King Mui, and that was one of the reasons why Chan Heung accepted him as a disciple at Jeung's father's request (being one who came from the same district when they met in HK), so we must go back to his birthplace and King Mui and not Futsan to find the source of his CLF.

See, right there! complete and utter lies. But funny to listen to as EJ tries to convince me otherwise. LMAO.

So, haha....When Did Jeung Yim's father take him to King Mui to see chan heung? what year? LOL

Even Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon have trouble accepting this idea of Jeung Yim being the co-founder of CLF, if you look at their website in a recent article written on the background as to the evolution of Hung Sing CLF, where it is written that Jeung Yim co-founded CLF with Chan Heung, it qualified itself at the end of the article by saying that the source of the claim is not from Futsan but from Chan Kam-Fai and his Sifu's overseas organizations and gave a list of names.

Jealousy really sucks huh? LOL its only YOU EJ that has a problem with CKY and his account of history LOLOLOL. misinformationist you!

The question we have to ask ourselves is why would Chan Kam-Fai and his lot want to made up this Johnny-come-lately claim? What would they gain from changing the history of CLF? All this happened only after the 4th generation beginning in Hong Kong, before that, no one questioned Chan Heung taught Jeung Yim and he was a great martial artist and a pioneer of CLF who made Futsan Hung Sing famous.

i can ask the same thing about Chan Yiu Chi, right? perhaps the war of history took place when Chan Yiu Chi tried to pass on his historical research that he did was the real deal. That would explain why when Hu Yuen Chou went around trying to show people Chan Yiu Chi's history it was laughed at and called rubbish.

so, someone lied and if you think i couldn't have been yiu chi because he was a saint or something, GET A CLUE.

[Dragkin]

Hey all, while I am not terribly knowledgeable in the more detailed histories of CLF - I wanted to chime in and put my own two cents into this. First off, I want to use the precursor of what's happening in China right now. The other day, I went to the grocery store and they were completely sold out of salt. Not just that, but people were now then running to buy soy sauce. Why? Well, they had gotten the idea that salt could:

A) Protect them from radiation if you eat a lot of it at once
B) Can block radiation from coming in if you spread it around the house
C) That other people are buying salt, so they must be buying it for some reason so they should buy salt so they aren't missing out on anything when they find out why everybody is buying salt

The point I am trying to make is that the Chinese historically tend to accept whatever they are told when it comes from an source that they believe is either smart, or who is an expert in something. Its like how the education system in China goes, what teacher says is right - and if you question it, then you're just a stupid idiot.

How is this relevant? I think that as time passed on, and people became so wrapped up in their passion for their lineage in the Fut San school, that they began to see Jeung Yim as being more important than he actually was. Just like how Yue Fei or the Shaolin Temple has been glorified to the point where you'd think that every style of Chinese martial arts comes from one or the other, the same happened here with Jeung Yim and the Hung Sing school. This was only fueled by the publishing of that novel about Jeung Yim as well. And when your Sifu says something, for a Chinese person - its law, more or less.

The other point that I think is interesting is in Hu Yuen Chou. Hu Yuen Chou was taught by both Chan Ngau Sing, and Chan Yiu Chi. He spent many years with Chan Ngau Sing, he was raised Fut San - and only later when to Chan Yiu Chi because he left for college. So, if Chan Yiu Chi was saying and claiming things counter to what Chan Ngau Sing was saying - why would Hu Yuen Chou not have said something about that? Furthermore, why would Chan Ngau Sing have even referred Hu Yuen Chou to Chan Yiu Chi in the first place if he was, as you always like to say, full of cow dung in regards to history?

I hope that makes sense - I actually just woke up, haven't had coffee yet and still tired. On a side note, its been mentioned I think in this thread and another one actually, but the topic of Hoi Jongs. I know they are full of meaning and such, but my teacher never really knew the meanings behind them. He was never into the history of the system so much, he was much more interested in training and teaching than that. But, I have always enjoyed learning new things - could you tell me more about the meanings inside the hoi jongs. I'd be really curious to hear both a Fut San and a Chan family interpretation of them actually.

Anyway, all that was just my two cents - I'd like to see what you think. Its always good to have an exchange of ideas, even if people do not agree with one another.

[hskwarrior]

I think that as time passed on, and people became so wrapped up in their passion for their lineage in the Fut San school, that they began to see Jeung Yim as being more important than he actually was. Just like how Yue Fei or the Shaolin Temple has been glorified to the point where you'd think that every style of Chinese martial arts comes from one or the other, the same happened here with Jeung Yim and the Hung Sing school. This was only fueled by the publishing of that novel about Jeung Yim as well. And when your Sifu says something, for a Chinese person - its law, more or less.

Without a doubt Jeung Hung Sing was the most influential master of the Choy Lee Fut system during the creational stages. HANDS DOWN. Secondly, you mention the book from Nim Fut San Yen yet, none of that history is used by the Hung Sing Kwoon. Oh, and the CHAN Village mentioned in that book, guess what? The villages were situated by surname. everyone in chan's king mui village were all chan. So, in this case, i can't agree with you.

In fact, do you even know Nim Fut San Yen's book even says?

The other point that I think is interesting is in Hu Yuen Chou. Hu Yuen Chou was taught by both Chan Ngau Sing, and Chan Yiu Chi. He spent many years with Chan Ngau Sing, he was raised Fut San - and only later when to Chan Yiu Chi because he left for college. So, if Chan Yiu Chi was saying and claiming things counter to what Chan Ngau Sing was saying - why would Hu Yuen Chou not have said something about that? Furthermore, why would Chan Ngau Sing have even referred Hu Yuen Chou to Chan Yiu Chi in the first place if he was, as you always like to say, full of cow dung in regards to history?

What do you really know about Hu Yuen Chou? Do you know what happened when he tried to take over the Fut San Hung Sing? Do you know what happened when he tried to push Chan Yiu Chi's history on the late Lun Chee?

[Violent Designs]

Without a doubt Jeung Hung Sing was the most influential master of the Choy Lee Fut system during the creational stages. HANDS DOWN. ?

You mean most influential for FUT SAN HUNG SING CLF, I assume? Just want to be specific here.