Question for Hskwarrior

[hskwarrior]

You mean most influential for FUT SAN HUNG SING CLF, I assume? Just want to be specific here.

No. Even the article EJ tried posting clearly states that if it weren't for Jeung Hung Sing CLF would not have gotten so much attention. not my words, its in the print provided by EJ.

Additionally, the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon is recognized as the largest and most structured schools of its time as well as being the one with the longest running history (98 straight years).

AND, VD, Jeung Hung Sing was Tam Sam's Sigung if this is where you're trying to go. Different time and space brother.

[Dragkin]

Without a doubt Jeung Hung Sing was the most influential master of the Choy Lee Fut system during the creational stages. HANDS DOWN. Secondly, you mention the book from Nim Fut San Yen yet, none of that history is used by the Hung Sing Kwoon. Oh, and the CHAN Village mentioned in that book, guess what? The villages were situated by surname. everyone in chan's king mui village were all chan. So, in this case, i can't agree with you.

In fact, do you even know Nim Fut San Yen's book even says?

While I have never actually seen or read the book (not that I could read the book even if I had seen the book) its my understanding than the book itself is very similar to the Yang Luchan story. That Chan Heung wasn't allowed to teach Jeung Yim by virtue that he wasn't born in the village, which was a village rule of sorts. That Chan Heung got into a dispute over water rights and was beat in a fight, or in need of help, which Jeung Yim miraculously came out to help him. After that he learned a little and was sent to Choy Fok to learn and so forth. I remember when I was reading about the book, it more or less reminded me of over half a dozen other stories that people believe for one reason or another. However, I would be curious to hear more of it - especially if my understanding of the book is incorrect in one way or another, which I'm sure it is somewhere.

As for Jeung Yim, he's actually a really cool guy to read about - no matter where you stand in the argument. I really hearing the histories that come from the Fut San masters because they always sound like true warriors and fighters, which is great and adds to the flavor of them. I think of all the branches of CLF, they really embody the spirit of the times the best personally.

What do you really know about Hu Yuen Chou? Do you know what happened when he tried to take over the Fut San Hung Sing? Do you know what happened when he tried to push Chan Yiu Chi's history on the late Lun Chee?

I admit, my knowledge of Hu Yuen Chou is rather limited. A doctor by training, he moved to Hong Kong either before or during the Cultural Revolution. He was trained by Chan Ngau Sing for a long period of time before being sent to Chan Yiu Chi. That he was referred to as one of the Heavenly Kings and so forth. While I do not exactly know what happened between Lun Chee and Chan Yiu Chi, but what I do notice is that there isn't anything from what I understand that says Chan Yiu Chi was saying that he felt Chan Yiu Chi OR Chan Ngau Sing was wrong in their assessments of the history. Since he came from two different teachers, from two different sources - if there was a difference between them then he would have said something at some point I would imagine. I know I would. Instead, from what I understand, he has said that the book was fiction created out of passion for Jeung Yim, and that Chan Ngau Sing had told him so much before. While its true that the book may be fiction and Jeung Yim still had been a founder, or at the very least co-founder, I still find it interesting that there wasn't any mention of a difference between Chan Ngau Sing and Chan Yiu Chi's histories. To me, at least, it implies that the two teachers had the same concept of history.

BTW, I really do like the idea of Chan Yuen Woo being a member of the Hung Mun, giving more links to it. If that is correct, then I could actually see an much stronger argument for Jeung Yim being a founder of a Hung Sing version of CLF. The way I would picture it, at least in my argument for it, would be that Chan Heung was more passive about the wars and fighting and all that stuff - whereas Jeung Yim was more active. I could see him going, whether by himself or by acceptance of Chan Heung, to the Green Grass Monk to get training and connections so that he would be able to do what he wanted to. From a historical and a human nature point of view, that makes more sense than most other arguments I have seen, actually. And I figure it fits Jeung Yim's personality, from what I know of him, better.

[Violent Designs]

No. Even the article EJ tried posting clearly states that if it weren't for Jeung Hung Sing CLF would not have gotten so much attention. not my words, its in the print provided by EJ.

Additionally, the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon is recognized as the largest and most structured schools of its time as well as being the one with the longest running history (98 straight years).

AND, VD, Jeung Hung Sing was Tam Sam's Sigung if this is where you're trying to go. Different time and space brother.

Not trying to go anywhere, just wanted to clarify.

So then what you are saying, Jeung Yim contributed more to the growth of Chan Family CLF than Chan Heung himself did? If I understand right. Or just to the growth and proliferation of the style?

[Dragkin]

Not trying to go anywhere, just wanted to clarify.

So then what you are saying, Jeung Yim contributed more to the growth of Chan Family CLF than Chan Heung himself did? If I understand right. Or just to the growth and proliferation of the style?

I think he means growth and proliferation. Chan family stuff looks very different from Fut San stuff, even I will agree. When I see a Fut San person do their forms, or even move, I actually see almost a different kind of energy and body positioning than in Chan family stuff, or really anything other than Buk Sing.

In terms of growth and proliferation, yeah - I can only think of maybe 2 or 3 others that could come close to Jeung Yim in terms of influencing the growth of CLF - Chan Koon Pak and Chan Cheong Mo. A lot of masters did their part in spreading and developing the system and such, but I have to say those three did the most in my opinion.

[hskwarrior]

That Chan Heung got into a dispute over water rights and was beat in a fight, or in need of help, which Jeung Yim miraculously came out to help him. After that he learned a little and was sent to Choy Fok to learn and so forth.

That is not apart of Fut San Hung Sing history as it is passed down. The issue of water rights is completely foreign to me. Do you mean Ching Cho? We've never said jeung yim trained with Choy Fook.

I remember when I was reading about the book, it more or less reminded me of over half a dozen other stories that people believe for one reason or another.

I can't even speak on that.

As for Jeung Yim, he's actually a really cool guy to read about - no matter where you stand in the argument. I really hearing the histories that come from the Fut San masters because they always sound like true warriors and fighters, which is great and adds to the flavor of them. I think of all the branches of CLF, they really embody the spirit of the times the best personally.

The old masters were definitely some real warriors. i love hearing about their lives, especially of my own lineage. The history of my lineeage is an awesome one when you have the complete version. Jeung Yim, Yuen Hai, Chan Ngau Sing, Chan Wei Fong, Wu Qin, Liang Hui Hua, Tong Sek and so on. They were living and experiencing some very crazy times.

Instead, from what I understand, he has said that the book was fiction created out of passion for Jeung Yim, and that Chan Ngau Sing had told him so much before.

however some of it is said to contain some truth as well. Still, that book has never been a tool for us. And, if we notice BS we will challenge it. even if it comes from our own branch. For example, there was an issue of when and how Jeung Yim died. was he poisoned? Killed? there were stories floating around so i kept looking. IN the end, the truth came out to be that Jeung Hung Sing fell ill and passed away. nothing more than that.

I still find it interesting that there wasn't any mention of a difference between Chan Ngau Sing and Chan Yiu Chi's histories. To me, at least, it implies that the two teachers had the same concept of history.

A mention from who? Fut San people just kept quiet about things. no one had the idea of putting the information out there. My sifu was the first to put Jeung Yim's history as we knew it at that point on the internet.

BTW, I really do like the idea of Chan Yuen Woo being a member of the Hung Mun, giving more links to it. If that is correct, then I could actually see an much stronger argument for Jeung Yim being a founder of a Hung Sing version of CLF. The way I would picture it, at least in my argument for it, would be that Chan Heung was more passive about the wars and fighting and all that stuff - whereas Jeung Yim was more active. I could see him going, whether by himself or by acceptance of Chan Heung, to the Green Grass Monk to get training and connections so that he would be able to do what he wanted to. From a historical and a human nature point of view, that makes more sense than most other arguments I have seen, actually. And I figure it fits Jeung Yim's personality, from what I know of him, better.

me too. hmmmmm interesting slant there. The Hung Mun essence is found all throughout Jeung Yim's lineage. I was visited today by a Hung Mun brother from Hawaii. During our conversation he mentioned something about a certain type of bow. He didn't know that it was part of Jeung Yim's lineage I never knew why Fut San does it that way. I was informed that it had a revolutionary meaning. i just learned this less than an hour ago. so now i know why there is an open right palm and closed left fist in our forms.

[hskwarrior]

So then what you are saying, Jeung Yim contributed more to the growth of Chan Family CLF than Chan Heung himself did? If I understand right. Or just to the growth and proliferation of the style?

It's not what I'm saying. I'm repeating what EJ's article stated. But yes, that is what the statement is indicating.

[hskwarrior]

I actually see almost a different kind of energy and body positioning than in Chan family stuff, or really anything other than Buk Sing.

Good catch my friend. My own students discovered that same thing.

In terms of growth and proliferation, yeah - I can only think of maybe 2 or 3 others that could come close to Jeung Yim in terms of influencing the growth of CLF - Chan Koon Pak and Chan Cheong Mo. A lot of masters did their part in spreading and developing the system and such, but I have to say those three did the most in my opinion.

See. Fut San was a major, major hub for the Hung Mun which was preparing for the Tai Ping rebellion. When Jeung Hung Sing began teaching in 1849 huge amounts of fightes swarmed to learn his method. Historically, entire neighborhoods were used as Jeung Hung Sing's training centers. Between 1849 and 1851 he managed to get a good number of little schools or cells going. then he organized them together under one name "HUNG SING KWOON" and then they went to fight in the revolution.

[Dragkin]

Good catch my friend. My own students discovered that same thing.

Its an interesting thing to see and it really makes me curious about the particular developments within the Fut San school and the differences between them and other branches. I personally like the aggressiveness from in the Fut San sets.

See. Fut San was a major, major hub for the Hung Mun which was preparing for the Tai Ping rebellion. When Jeung Hung Sing began teaching in 1849 huge amounts of fightes swarmed to learn his method. Historically, entire neighborhoods were used as Jeung Hung Sing's training centers. Between 1849 and 1851 he managed to get a good number of little schools or cells going. then he organized them together under one name "HUNG SING KWOON" and then they went to fight in the revolution.

And that's why I say he was perhaps the biggest influence on the actual spreading and promoting CLF. For me, looking at the physical evidence at hand now - its not that I do not see Fut San CLF as being different from other lineages. When i see most lineage sets, I see a lot of similarities to the stuff I know - not the same movements and such, but at least the same body positioning and energy. However, what I see is more of Jeong Yim doing his own thing rather him creating his own system or completing a system, per se. Still - history has known to change as different facts come to light. Look at Wing Chun, they still get into more arguments than you and EJ get into - but as time goes on, they are understanding their own history more and more. As funny as it sounds, I could also see Jeong Yim as Chan Heung's 'black ops' kind of guy in a way - the guy he trusted to train more rebels than he could. That would even explain the idea behind why he was asked to take over the Fut San school as well.

The possibilities that exist with Jeong Yim are amazing actually. Very fascinating and interesting topic I think.

[hskwarrior]

NICe!....

[Eric Olson]

Between 1849 and 1851 he managed to get a good number of little schools or cells going. then he organized them together under one name "HUNG SING KWOON" and then they went to fight in the revolution.

Sounds like he was more or less a gang leader....

EO

[hskwarrior]

and if he was? you have to be on the tough side to be a red pole.