defense against jabs

[YouKnowWho]

Given that WCK is a close quarter combat system, why would I try to keep him outside his punching range. which coincidently is also my favorite range ?

You can take advantage on your

- opponent's weakness, or
- your own strength.

If there is a conflict such as your strength is also your opponent's strength, you have to make your own judgement.

[couch]

Against a jab? I can jab all day long, keep moving, cause if your only response is to move out of the way, you'll be tired out long before I stop jabbing. Takes less energy to throw out a jab than it does to move your entire body.

It takes more energy for me to move my head/torso and cover up than it does for you to protect your head and move your feet and hands WHILE trying to chase me down/track me?

I wonder why the puncher can only sustain punching for so long until they have to stop - but the defender at the time can cover up, move, etc the whole time and longer? It has to do with energy expenditure.

"Punches in bunches." (Not forever).

[AdrianK]

It takes more energy for me to move my head/torso and cover up than it does for you to protect your head and move your feet and hands WHILE trying to chase me down/track me?

Tracking someone is a whole lot easier than timing and reacting to someone.

A jab:
1.) Doesn't always need to use the torso

2.) And when it does, it doesn't always need a dramatic movement of the torso. Its not always or even often used as a powerful strike

3.) A Boxer's head really shouldn't move, a boxer should keep his chin tucked when throwing the jab.

4.) Anyone who has fought before and hell, even plenty of people who haven't, can tell you that it takes more energy out of you when your opponent is the one dictating the pace of the fight.

5.) Jab -> Dictating the pace, Evasion -> Having to react at my pace.

I wonder why the puncher can only sustain punching for so long until they have to stop - but the defender at the time can cover up, move, etc the whole time and longer? It has to do with energy expenditure.

"Punches in bunches." (Not forever).

To be honest, there are shots that you throw hard, and shots that you don't. The jab is usually one of those that you don't, and really doesn't require much energy at all. Certainly not as much as moving your entire body, but whatever.

Anyways, point is that constant evasion isn't a solution. Unless you really believe you can perfectly evade the punch output of a normal fighter.(which is ridiculous)

Evasion is great, but it has its time and its place. No point in moving just to move out of the way. You need to counterattack sometime or another.

[shaolin_allan]

wow we are getting some good replies on this thread and input surprisingly. While I was sparring a boxer the one thing that seemed to work for me is the takedowns that I learned in Wing Chun. Even though I found quick jabs tough to handle being that close I was able to tie the striking arm up and use the trips while i tried to get shots in.

[YouKnowWho]

tie the striking arm up.

IMO, this is the best approach. If you can wrap your opponent's arms (like an octopus wraps around prey) and temporary disable his striking ability, you can then consume him slowly after that.

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/9...uswrapprey.jpg

[couch]

Tracking someone is a whole lot easier than timing and reacting to someone.

A jab:
1.) Doesn't always need to use the torso

2.) And when it does, it doesn't always need a dramatic movement of the torso. Its not always or even often used as a powerful strike

3.) A Boxer's head really shouldn't move, a boxer should keep his chin tucked when throwing the jab.

4.) Anyone who has fought before and hell, even plenty of people who haven't, can tell you that it takes more energy out of you when your opponent is the one dictating the pace of the fight.

5.) Jab -> Dictating the pace, Evasion -> Having to react at my pace.

To be honest, there are shots that you throw hard, and shots that you don't. The jab is usually one of those that you don't, and really doesn't require much energy at all. Certainly not as much as moving your entire body, but whatever.

Anyways, point is that constant evasion isn't a solution. Unless you really believe you can perfectly evade the punch output of a normal fighter.(which is ridiculous)

Evasion is great, but it has its time and its place. No point in moving just to move out of the way. You need to counterattack sometime or another.

I never said that constant evasion is the key. It was offered as another option. It's bloody hard to hit someone who keeps moving and running away until they get a chance to attack. I have sparred experienced Tae Kwon Do folk and it's hard to get anything off while they move around.

1. A jab doesn't need to use the torso, but it needs footwork (stepping) to work.
2. True. A jab can flick, feel, or hurt.
3. Not true. Talk to my boxing coach who trains the WBC champion here in Halifax. Keep the head moving = not an easy target.
4. I disagree, but that's okay. Takes more energy to punch than cover up. This is my experience. I can run all day (like the TKD folk) but I can't punch all day. Not even jab all day.
5. We disagree.

[JamesC]

I'd like to try and add a few things, if possible. I'm not trying to argue either way, but I thought the extra info might add something to the discussion.

I have been doing Muay Thai and straight boxing for a few years now. In the process i've learned quite a few variations of the jab. The jab is the bread and butter of an outside fighter like me, so it was always to my advantage to learn to use it in as many ways as is effective. I'm not going to write a treatise on the jab as it can become quite exhaustive trying to put all the nuances of punching in writing.

1. Flicking Jab - I've seen different versions of the flicking jab over the years. The footwork usually falls into 2 categories: With a step, or without.

With a step typically uses a step and drag pattern, allowing people with quick feet to add the extra forward momentum to their punch. Without, on the other hand, can be thrown from the shoulder in rapid succession. It isn't powerful, but it isn't meant to be. It is meant to be a feeler for range, your opponent's defenses, and as a distraction so they won't see you that you are setting up something more powerful.

2. Stiff Jab - The stiff jab always relies on your footwork. You have to be rooted in order for it to be really stiff. I've seen the footwork 2 ways on this as well: Step and drag, or more of a falling step.

The step and drag is just how it sounds, but i've always considered it weaker, albeit faster than the falling footwork. You use the forward momentum to punch straight through them and you keep pressing forward, using your back leg to set it up again if need be.

The falling footwork is more for catching them unaware if they don't have their distance yet or are particularly slow, or have a hole in their defense. You step forward and strike just as that lead foot is landing, adding a forward and down energy to the strike. If I use this one it is usually a one-shot strike since instead of bringing my rear foot up to meet my lead, I step back to my original position with my lead foot. It would look almost like a thrust in modern fencing. I find it works particularly well if you know you're gonna catch them right on the nose.

My favorite use of the stiff jab is for when someone is really good at keeping their chin tucked. You hit them with a good stiff jab in the middle of the forehead and they have no choice but to lift their head(and thus their chin) for a nice big strong-side punch.

3. Switch Jab - This is my favorite. I learned it in muay thai. If i've been banging them with jabs for a bit, this one works wonders.

Footwork is the same as if you are switching to make a muay thai kick with the left leg. You punch out, but as you do you quickly switch your feet so that your left leg is now behind, while your right is in front. This, in effect, turns your jab into a quick left cross.

Be warned, this will usually cause you to fall forward, but the footwork often confuses them so badly that you simply step back through with your left foot and kick with a right round or a right cross to the face.

4. Leaning Jab - This is more from when I was doing JKD. About the only thing I took from it, tbh. Anyhow, it works by making your opponent misjudge your distance.

Essentially, you are in a back stance. However, you want to make yourself look like you're in a natural boxing stance. What this does it creates the illusion that you are way out of range with your jab. All you really have to do is shift your weight forward and do the kung fu equivalent of a front punch. You lean forward on the left leg and punch out as far as you can. If you do it right, they get really confused about how you can hit them even though you look very far away.

5. Circling Jab - This is more of a hybrid. Think Ali and you have the gist. Simply use a flicking jab, but instead of going forward, take small steps to their outside. You don't even need to always pull them back very far, so long as you keep it in their face. This keeps them overloaded and can often expose weaknesses and open them up for something better. Not to mention their over-correction.

That's all i've got time for at the moment. I can write more later if anything seems confusing or whatever. Unfortunately I have to go earn my pay, though.

[SAAMAG]

I can't believe there's this much debate. You evade, deflect, block or jam, or intercept. No different than any other straight punch.

[JamesC]

I can't believe there's this much debate. You evade, deflect, block or jam, or intercept. No different than any other straight punch.

That's kinda my thoughts as well.

Why not just move your head?

[couch]

That's kinda my thoughts as well.

Why not just move your head?

As I said.

[AdrianK]

I never said that constant evasion is the key. It was offered as another option.

Huh? You said "Pak Sau is good. Not being there is much better."

Hardly sounds like offering it as another option, its an assertion that its a superior method.

To be honest, I love boxing and I love slipping and weaving, but against a jab I think its completely pointless to give up your position like that unless you're trying to play a mental game of some sort, or you haven't gotten used to their timing yet.

It's bloody hard to hit someone who keeps moving and running away until they get a chance to attack. I have sparred experienced Tae Kwon Do folk and it's hard to get anything off while they move around.

I don't know what to tell you here, to be honest. I've never had an issue hitting anyone with a jab, least of all "Experienced Tae Kwon Do" folk. Maybe work on your timing and targeting, spar a lot more, too.

1. A jab doesn't need to use the torso, but it needs footwork (stepping) to work.

No, it doesn't. A perfect, technically correct jab (in some trainers eyes) is one that utilizes hip and shoulder rotation, the forward momentum with the step, the corkscrew motion with the fist, etc.

But boxing isn't about perfect technique. And the jab can be used in other effective ways, without the step, hip and shoulder rotation, even without the corkscrew motion. These things can remove power and speed, but if you know your opponent is going to move their entire body each time you jab, you dictate the pace of the fight and make them waste energy by putting them on the defensive. Throw in a hard shot every now and then to keep them guessing, and you're golden.


2. True. A jab can flick, feel, or hurt.

3. Not true. Talk to my boxing coach who trains the WBC champion here in Halifax. Keep the head moving = not an easy target.

You're twisting my words. I never said it was an easy target, I'm saying its easier to hit a moving target than it is to time an opponent's attack. Keep in mind that tracking a target is something inherent in our species, its helped us survive for thousands of years. Its a basic instinct thats honed in many ways throughout our lives, not just fighting. Now on the other hand, timing the perfect evasive movement, isn't. Thats not to say we're not built in with survival skills and that timing isn't one of them, but how that relates to the slip and weave, or evasive footwork, are more complex skills than the basic tracking we hone on a daily basis.

That being said, I have a couple of important questions regarding your claim.
1.) Which WBC Champion? There are many across many weight classes, and I don't know of any current ones that are from Halifax except Tyson Cave, who is 13-1 and recently won a vacant WBC Continental Americas title recently, which is hardly a significant achievement at all so... :|

2.) Who is your boxing coach? Some boxers emphasize defense, but in general, its not like defensive boxers rule the divisions, thats not the case. Some boxers believe counter punching is the best, some believe pressure fighting is the best, some believe effective defense is the best, some believe being well rounded is the best, etc. etc. etc. - Your WBC Champion training coach might be slanted toward defense, but that doesn't mean hes right or even that the boxing world is on his side about it. I guess your boxing coach who trains a nobody titlist can talk to my boxing coach who's significantly trained an actual WBC title holder, an olympic silver medalist, and other pros.

4. I disagree, but that's okay. Takes more energy to punch than cover up. This is my experience. I can run all day (like the TKD folk) but I can't punch all day. Not even jab all day.

Its a simple mathematical equation. How much energy does it take for the human body to move your fist to someones face in a quick motion, versus how much it takes to move the entire body in a quick motion.

If you're just talking about slipping, well keep in mind there's only one safe direction to slip. Not much in the way of variety to keep the opponent guessing.

[couch]

Huh? You said "Pak Sau is good. Not being there is much better."

Hardly sounds like offering it as another option, its an assertion that its a superior method.

To be honest, I love boxing and I love slipping and weaving, but against a jab I think its completely pointless to give up your position like that unless you're trying to play a mental game of some sort, or you haven't gotten used to their timing yet.




I don't know what to tell you here, to be honest. I've never had an issue hitting anyone with a jab, least of all "Experienced Tae Kwon Do" folk. Maybe work on your timing and targeting, spar a lot more, too.




No, it doesn't. A perfect, technically correct jab (in some trainers eyes) is one that utilizes hip and shoulder rotation, the forward momentum with the step, the corkscrew motion with the fist, etc.

But boxing isn't about perfect technique. And the jab can be used in other effective ways, without the step, hip and shoulder rotation, even without the corkscrew motion. These things can remove power and speed, but if you know your opponent is going to move their entire body each time you jab, you dictate the pace of the fight and make them waste energy by putting them on the defensive. Throw in a hard shot every now and then to keep them guessing, and you're golden.


2. True. A jab can flick, feel, or hurt.


You're twisting my words. I never said it was an easy target, I'm saying its easier to hit a moving target than it is to time an opponent's attack. Keep in mind that tracking a target is something inherent in our species, its helped us survive for thousands of years. Its a basic instinct thats honed in many ways throughout our lives, not just fighting. Now on the other hand, timing the perfect evasive movement, isn't. Thats not to say we're not built in with survival skills and that timing isn't one of them, but how that relates to the slip and weave, or evasive footwork, are more complex skills than the basic tracking we hone on a daily basis.

That being said, I have a couple of important questions regarding your claim.
1.) Which WBC Champion? There are many across many weight classes, and I don't know of any current ones that are from Halifax except Tyson Cave, who is 13-1 and recently won a vacant WBC Continental Americas title recently, which is hardly a significant achievement at all so... :|

2.) Who is your boxing coach? Some boxers emphasize defense, but in general, its not like defensive boxers rule the divisions, thats not the case. Some boxers believe counter punching is the best, some believe pressure fighting is the best, some believe effective defense is the best, some believe being well rounded is the best, etc. etc. etc. - Your WBC Champion training coach might be slanted toward defense, but that doesn't mean hes right or even that the boxing world is on his side about it. I guess your boxing coach who trains a nobody titlist can talk to my boxing coach who's significantly trained an actual WBC title holder, an olympic silver medalist, and other pros.




Its a simple mathematical equation. How much energy does it take for the human body to move your fist to someones face in a quick motion, versus how much it takes to move the entire body in a quick motion.

If you're just talking about slipping, well keep in mind there's only one safe direction to slip. Not much in the way of variety to keep the opponent guessing.

You've twisted my words and made personal attacks on my boxing coach.

We're done.

[AdrianK]

You've twisted my words and made personal attacks on my boxing coach.

We're done.

Twisted your words? Perhaps you're simply not expressing yourself correctly. If I am twisting your words, I certainly don't mean to.

As far as making personal attacks on your boxing coach, calm down sir. I was poking fun, hence the emoticon. I think its more than a little silly that you "name dropped" to provide substance to your statement, I didn't say that your boxing coach doesn't know what hes talking about, only that if you're going to bring up accomplishments to provide substance to your point, there are people with better resumes who think differently. And hell, there are people with way better resumes than my trainer, who think differently too.

Boxing has a lot of debate and arguments. There's no "true jab" or "true defense", or whatnot, and you can't name drop a trainer to prove your point. Not only is it unverifiable, second-hand information, but its just silly.

Once again, I'm not making a personal attack on your trainer, my words might've been a little harsh but if you're going to claim WBC this and that, you should know what WBC titles are actually relevant and what are the equivalent of "Good job, maybe someday you'll be the real champ"...

[SAAMAG]

But sir you forget that contrary to boxing and other fighting arts...WC has only ONE TRUE method. This forum has been arguing who's got that method for over a decade now.

That's where the ego's come from as well. For most, name dropping, lineage wars, and overly emphasized theory is where it's at in the CMA world.

Thats why many have gravitated towards more functional fighting methods devoid of those things--too much B.S associated with it otherwise.

[KuntaoKid]

counter punch?