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Thread: Time to make traditionalists and NHB fighters alike, ****ed off!

  1. #1
    Ryu Guest

    Time to make traditionalists and NHB fighters alike, ****ed off!

    Well I have been spending some time on stand-up this last week or so, and ground and pound, and of course judo. I'm about to give one of my famous little "Ryu's ponderings" so those of you who wince at the thought press the backspace button on your browser now. :)

    I have come to somewhat of a conclusion about myself and my training. LOL, and I'm not sure if NHB fighters or traditionalists alike will like the idea. Though I am always one to say exactly what's on my mind, regardless.

    Well first off, I am someone that really wants to find realistic ways of self-defense and protection of other people. And ....well I do not mean this as a flame, nor do I want to start a flame war in any way (and yes, it's only my personal opinion based on my experience).. but in my opinion real life fighting and self-defense holds the exact same body mechanics, ferocity, and unpredictability as you find in NHB matches.
    That is my personal experience. Bodies violently collide, fists are swung crazily, and people grab hold of each other punching, kneeing, wrestling, etc.
    (yes there are sometimes multiple opponents, yes there are knives, etc. you have to understand and deal with that as well)
    But I feel that in order to prepare for the shock and violence of a high level fight, you have to train at least in some way the concepts of NHB.
    That means cross-training, sparring with resistent opponents, and doing realistic drills, heavy bag, ground and pound dummies, etc.
    That does not mean traditional arts do not work, it just means that I am looking for a very efficient and quick way to defend myself...and I also think technique is nothing without attribute that is why I lift weights, work on endurance (which I need more of) and do push ups, pulls, etc. Speed drills, etc.

    Now that the traditionalists are mad at me, it's time to slow the cheers of the NHB enthusiasts and make them mad at me as well :D

    I have come to a conclusion about my inner person. I am not a violent person, nor do I like violence. In fact, I am not a very competitive person (except with myself) :) Being an NHB fighter (even a champion) would be a living hell for me. I can't really think of something I'd hate more. Not saying that it is bad, but I am saying that it's just not me. You'll never see me fight in a cage, you'll never see me drop all else just to train fighting my entire life. (I could just buy a gun) NHB fighters are possibly some of the most dedicated trainers I have ever seen. It's amazing to me how much they work, and kill themselves to do what they do. There is nothing wrong with that.
    However I know this about myself. I do not like the rather "un-budo" emphasis placed in a lot of NHB environments. Now before you yell, yes I know everyone is an individual, and I can't make generalizations. :) I'm not trying to. However the one thing I have loved more than anything else about martial art is the "philosophy" behind the traditional arts. Whether or not it's really because of martial arts is irrelevant. I really enjoy the bushido aspect of the arts. So much in fact that it really has shaped a great deal of my spiritual and physical life.
    I hate the thought of blooding someone up unless I have to, I hate big lights, loud crazy crowds, ring girls just a bit too scanty for me, and a lot of the egoism that I have seen with a lot (but definately not all) NHB people. Now that's a pretty bad statement, so let me be the first to say that I am not calling the people in this sport bad. Not in the least! But I do see some aspects of the sport these days that I don't agree with. :) I'll just leave it at that.

    So here's the kicker...
    I will continue and hopefully delve deeper into training NHB style as a "self-defense" or maybe even a "traditional art". Don't all throw tomatos at once now :D When I say "traditional" I am not fooling myself. I am not going to make absurd excuses to keep me from testing myself, etc. I will still spar hard with uncooperative opponents (who try to beat me), I will train hard with my physical body (i.e. weight lifting, calistenics, etc) I will continue to practice judo and spar often. I will drill on heavy bags, grappling dummies, etc. I will train ground and pound with friends, range familiarization, etc.

    But I want to hold a very "budo" like mentality with my training. I DO want to mix philosophy with my training, and I want to contribute to society, cultivate compassion, empathy, morality, bravery, wisdom, and inner peace. And even though I train with other people quite a bit, I want to really appreciate the feeling of training just by myself...

    I have a pretty open mind to things, however I arm myself with reality before I go looking for fantasy. I may dabble in more esoteric things like Ki meditation, etc. But I feel NHB "styled" training is what will really cut it in the real world. At least for me at this day and time.

    Well that is my post.
    Hope you enjoyed reading it. Send all hate mail to "Ryu_is_only_expressing_himself@hotmail.com" ;)

    Take care,
    and tell me what you think,

    Ryu



    judo legend, Masahiko Kimura


    "One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

  2. #2
    les paul Guest

    Some advice

    Put down the grappling magizines and leave the crack pipe alone.

  3. #3
    les paul Guest

    Some advice

    Hah..... got ya!!!!!

    Lighten up and try not to take yourself so serious.

  4. #4
    Fish of Fury Guest
    "I want to hold a very "budo" like mentality with my training. I DO want to mix philosophy with my training"
    "I feel NHB "styled" training is what will really cut it in the real world. At least for me at this day and time."

    great, i'm glad you've found a balance of sorts.

    i'm the sort of person to whom the "philosophical" side of MA is more important than kicking butt.if you can have an equal balance of both, i'd say you're doing very well.

    and now the criticism you insist upon....

    "When I say "traditional" I am not fooling myself. I am not going to make absurd excuses to keep me from testing myself, etc"

    is your definition of a traditional MArtist someone who makes absurd excuses and fools themselves?

    i would have thought that would be more an individual trait, not an attribute of entire styles, let alone all traditional martial arts.

    __________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

  5. #5
    Xebsball Guest
    Ok, good post. I agree with most of the stuff you said. The un-budo thing is why i chose to train kung fu and not bjj, but i dont hold anything personal against them.

    BTW, is your hair like Goku's?

    -------------------------
    Now renegades are the people with their own philosophies
    They change the course of history
    Everyday people like you and me
    We're the renegades we're the people
    With our own philosophies
    We change the course of history
    Everyday people like you and me

  6. #6
    jimmy23 Guest
    I can see your points . If theres parts of the sport you dont like, I can see that also. The fact that you still want to test yourself is great.

    For me, training with good NHB guys is what makes me feel alive. The violence, the agression, the constant need for awareness and vitality in the gym, these are the fuel for my own philosophical development.

    Good post, I like you man, you are a serious martial artist, goodluvk in your training.


    "You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
    Spinning Backfist

  7. #7
    Nexus Guest
    I must second spanky on this post and say, 'dont take yourself so seriously.' You say you know things about yourself, as if the 'you' that 'you' supposedly know is not changing. Who you were yesterday and today, tomorrow, before reading this, after reading this, is always in motion.

    And as for fighting, it is only an illusion. The illusion is created by the ego and fear. The best fighters are the ones who are relaxed and fierce.

    If each moment of a fight was broken up, you would see the illusion. The exchange of energy etc. Although this may not make sense to everyone.

    - Nexus

    <font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

  8. #8
    SevenStar Guest

    I have come to a conclusion also

    Ryu is my not so evil twin! I pretty much have the same outlook as he, with the exception that I like to kill myself in training in order to fight. I am hoping to step back into the ring soon. I have trained in several traditional styles and currently train in CMA, however, my time spent in muay thai ,grappling and this may be a shock to to some of the MMA - karate - really woke me up in a sense. I played football in high school and worked out with the wrestling team - I rolled with them, but had no interest in actually trying out - these also played a role in my "waking up" My time in norris' TSD and at an american karate school was spent doing forms and point sparring. It served as a good foundation, I knew the techs, but when I sparred with friends on the wrestling team and with boxers, I got my arse kicked on more than one occasion. They are used to full contact strikes and colliding bodies. their training makes them grow accustomed to it. I then started training in karate with a japanese friend of mine who spends hours a day training. His karate was like nothing I had seen at the time - he was mobile, used circular motion...it was awesome. He also sparred full contact, which is how we sparred when we trained together. at the same time I was training in grappling. This all wore me out at first, as I was not used to this type of training. I started to break away from traditional methods of training, and spent most of my time sparring and grappling. My japanese friend taught forms - he knows all of the shotokan forms, but only taught the ones he thought drilled certain attributes used in fighting. After that came muay thai. All of these arts made me realize the importance of stamina. The TSD and american karate workouts were extraordinarily simple, and rarely was there a moment that I was winded. Grappling and muay thai had me gasping for breath constantly. When I first started sparring full contact I had to get used to not pulling my strikes. in the meantime, I was getting my head handed to me by people that were used to this type of fighting. that's enough rambling about that...

    Now that I'm into CMA, I appreciate the forms training and the drills as they are excellent ways to build strength and stamina. However, I am also fortunate enough to have found a school that does hard sparring and that advocates grappling.

    "is your definition of a traditional MArtist someone who makes absurd excuses and fools themselves?"

    Not at all. However, it's been my experience that alot of traditional stylists fool themselves. The drills and forms are a necessity, but in my oppinion not enough, as I've stated several times on this forum. Kudos to the traditional stylists that do spar hard contact and grapple. In the street you may go to the ground, you may not. You should be prepared for any situation. If you don't grapple, you fool yourself by saying "If he tries to take me down, I'll just do this" the same goes for grapplers with no standup training. If you have never taken a really hard shot to the jaw, the street is not the place you want to get your first taste of it.

    -ShortySeven&copy;
    Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

    Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

  9. #9
    Grappling-Insanity Guest
    Good post!!

  10. #10
    Braden Guest
    Now... I agree with you argument about training hard and NHB guys being a good example of guys that train hard.

    But saying that NHB fights are equivalent to street fights is total crap. In the street, the most important thing is surprise. A 120 lb untrained kid could kick the crap out of Tyson if he got the jump on him. In the ring, the least important thing is surprise. You know EXACTLY who, where, and when. In the street, the second most important thing is how you're doing at the time. Are you stoned, drunk, tired, depressed, stressed out, sick, missed a work out, just finished a work out, etc - don't matter; you'd better be able to defend yourself. In the ring? The exact opposite. People do sequential training all year to build up to that one moment in the ring; they're guaranteed to be at their best. On the streets, there's also another kind of surprise. Tactical surprise. Everyone talks about knives, guns, and multiple opponents. Sure, whatever. But ignoring all that, is your opponent gonna shoot? Is he gonna box you? Does he know what he's doing at all? How can you tell? On the other hand, professional fighters can and do watch every fight their opponent has been in and will know exactly what their strenghts and weaknesses are; each fighter walks in having a pretty good idea of what the other guy is going to try. This changes the whole way you should approach your tactical training. One way is best for the streets, another for professional fighters. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Everyone these days is talking about "ranges" in fights. Personally, I think the concept is utter bull****. But if you've got that mentality, then I think it's clear that the real deciding factor in the fight is during range _transitions_. That's where the juice is. That's where two otherwise well-matched fighters will win or lose against each other. Now, keep this in mind: in the ring, you start at opposite ends of a designated fighting space; you know exactly what the nature of the transition of ranges is going to be. On the street, you can pretty much assume someone is going to be literally on top of you by the time you know you're in a fight. The nature of range transition is fundamentally different in these two cases. If you believe that this is the deciding factor in a fight like I do, or even if you just think it's important, you've got to realize that you'll want to train with this in mind - and that there's going to be differences in that training depending on which of the above cases you're training for. Shall I go on?

    Am I slagging NHB fight or NHB fighters? Hell no! Those guys train their asses off and are scary, scary mofos. On a related note, NHB-style fighting is clearly an excellent training tool. It's strengths are how it provides you with skilled, honestly resisting opponents against which you can test your stuff. Clearly a vitally important part of obtaining martial skill for self-defense purposes. Are NHB-style fights and self-defense situations the same in terms of the qualities you mentioned in your post? Hell no! See above. Does that mean you should train differently depending on which one you are emphasizing? Assuming you believe you fight like you train, it clearly follows: yes. To reiterate: Am I saying NHB guys can't fight on the streets? No. Am I saying NHB fighting is of negligible value for self-defense? No.

    There's some really important distinctions to make though.

    P.S. The popular line of 'traditional styles are for building character and honoring ancestors' is utter crap and insulting to anyone following a legitimate martial tradition. Unfortunately, you hear it repeated mindlessly both by proponents of and opponents of the traditional arts. If someone wants to build character, all they have to do is stop being such a brat. Or try some volunteer work if they really want to.

  11. #11
    SevenStar Guest
    "I must second spanky on this post and say, 'dont take yourself so seriously.' You say you know things about yourself, as if the 'you' that 'you' supposedly know is not changing. Who you were yesterday and today, tomorrow, before reading this, after reading this, is always in motion."

    He takes his training seriously, ans these appear to conclusions he has made on what he feels are the best training methods for himself at his time. Most MA should be as serious about their training. He's in a constant state of evaluation. This is not the first time he has posted his thoughts on training, and most likely will not be the last. His thoughts on training may change later as his training and aging lead him in different directions.


    "And as for fighting, it is only an illusion. The illusion is created by the ego and fear. The best fighters are the ones who are relaxed and fierce."

    Knowledge of how to use fear is a major factor in what makes you fierce on the street. training is what makes you relaxed. The people that do not know how to use their fear freeze. You may be a ferocious as a tiger in class, but on the street, facing someone you don't know, or a weapon, or multiple attackers, the most ferocious in class will become as meek as rabbits if they can't properly use fear to their advantage.

    "If each moment of a fight was broken up, you would see the illusion. The exchange of energy etc. Although this may not make sense to everyone."

    WTF?? the problem I see with this is the "little big word" IF. The thing is, you can't do that until after the fight is over. you can see a lot of things after the fact. hind sight is 20/20.

    -ShortySeven&copy;
    Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

    Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

  12. #12
    Braden Guest
    The main problem here is that you guys clearly have no idea what a traditional style is.

    "That means cross-training, sparring with resistent opponents, and doing realistic drills, heavy bag, ground and pound dummies, etc."

    Since when do traditional stylists NOT do this? Those are all pretty basic requirements for any program intended to develop martial skill.

    Do you honestly think in the millenia of human existance no one has thought until now to train against a resisting opponent? Do you honestly think that this is a ground-breaking, novel idea? Please. Use your head.

    The problem is people are comparing bad traditionalists with good modern eclectics. You know what? There's a whole crap load of BAD modern eclectics too, out there teaching absolute smut. Why don't you hear about them in these discussions? Because it's not conveniant for your argument. The bottom line is, there are great teachers and awful teachers, and everywhere in between. Most teachers are awful. This is pretty much true regardless of what approach to martial training you're talking about: old vs. new, east vs. west, grappling vs. striking, whatever.

    The saving grace that the modern eclectics have, and the reason I would send a friend to a modern electic school over a traditional one if I had no idea about their respective qualities, and the reason I would rather have a bad M.E. practitioner watching my ass than a bad traditionalist, or a M.E. over a traditionalist from random samplings where I didn't know their skill (etc etc etc)... the saving grace they have is that they're founded on the idea of getting conditioned and doing some amount of kicking the crap out of each other. No matter what smut you're teaching and how dumb the student is, he's bound to learn something in that environment, or at least get in better shape than someone without the training. Whereas the bad traditionalists are just bad and don't even have this going for them.

    But that's an entirely different argument than comparing legitimate practitioners from each perspective - in which case, the 'argument' is simple - good skill is good skill, period.

  13. #13
    SevenStar Guest

    Braden...

    "But saying that NHB fights are equivalent to street fights is total crap."

    Where did he say that? he said:

    "but in my opinion real life fighting and self-defense holds the exact same body mechanics, ferocity, and unpredictability as you find in NHB matches.
    That is my personal experience. Bodies violently collide, fists are swung crazily, and people grab hold of each other punching, kneeing, wrestling, etc.
    (yes there are sometimes multiple opponents, yes there are knives, etc. you have to understand and deal with that as well)
    But I feel that in order to prepare for the shock and violence of a high level fight, you have to train at least in some way the concepts of NHB."

    He is saying that NHB training can help you with a lot of the things you encounter in a street altercation. That's different. For example, what is going to help you more in an altercation, training forms everyday - no contact, little variation, no opponent, deep stances, a chambered hand as opposed to having your guard up, etc. or several rounds of NHB training where you have a resisting opponent, hard contact, grappling, etc.?

    -ShortySeven&copy;
    Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

    Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

  14. #14
    Braden Guest
    "real life fighting and self-defense holds the exact same body mechanics, ferocity, and unpredictability as you find in NHB matches."

    I addressed unpredictability fairly thoroughly in my post. I addressed body mechanics indirectly in the sense that I discussed how the ideal tactical training for both should vary, and your body mechanics should form the foundation for your tactical training. That's two out of the three qualities he said were the same, and I argued were different. I can post an argument for ferocity too if you'd like.

    Your post was another great example of complete ignorance of traditional styles though. Doing forms all day is NOT traditional training methodology. Chambered-at-the-hip punches aren't taught in any good traditional system I've had exposure too. Same deal with guard stances. In bagua, xingyi, and taiji the basic stances are as close to a boxer's guard as the basic muay thai stance is.

  15. #15
    SevenStar Guest

    actually...

    I recently posted about a suck a§§ school that used to send people to participate in our class and then go back to their school and show them what they saw. This school also taught NHB fighting, and they absolutely sucked. They are still on the butt end of many jokes because of something that happened at a recent NHB tourney here - they stepped in there talking noise about how good they were and how much butt they would kick and that nobody there stood a chance against them - hillariously, all of them lost their fights. There is definitely bad NHB out there, I agree with you on that.

    "That means cross-training, sparring with resistent opponents, and doing realistic drills, heavy bag, ground and pound dummies, etc."

    'Since when do traditional stylists NOT do this? Those are all pretty basic requirements for any program intended to develop martial skill.'

    As we have read on this forum, many of the traditional stylists here do not spar. Also there are many that only light contact spar, and this is not just CMA, some kenpo guys said the same. light contact sparring is done with a resisting opponent true enough, but the extent is not as extreme as it is with full contact. Also, an opponent may resist in drills, but it is after all a drill. You may resist my chin na lock, or not let me take you down, but you don't strike back either.

    -ShortySeven&copy;
    Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

    Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

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