-
"But I feel that in order to prepare for the shock and violence of a high level fight, you have to train at least in some way the concepts of NHB.
That means cross-training, sparring with resistent opponents, and doing realistic drills, heavy bag, ground and pound dummies, etc."
When you say cross-training, do you mean in several different styles, or preparing for all different ranges of combat?
If you do a traditional style (just for the hell of it, let's say....bagua) there's nothing preventing you from sparring with a live opponent, or doing live drills, or any of that. In fact, if you want to develop real fighting ability, it's a must. I always get a little irritated when people refer to live sparring as "modern" training. No, it's been around for a while. I'd call it "smart" training.
-
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As we have read on this forum, many of the traditional stylists here do not spar. [/quote]
Really?!?!? I must of missed that one. I spar. Which of you out there don't spar?
Don't bust your hands patting yourselves on the back guys.
-
"Your post was another great example of complete ignorance of traditional styles though. Doing forms all day is NOT traditional training methodology. Chambered-at-the-hip punches aren't taught in any good traditional system I've had exposure too."
The forms training was an example of one aspect of the training, as was full contact sparring in NHB. they do alot more than simply spar. As for the chambering, I have never seen a traditional style that does not teach this, however I admittedly have limited experience with internal styles like bagua. Look at shaolin forms and karate katas. TKD, TSD, and so forth. I'll use taikyoku shodan as an example. Look left, CHAMBER for a low block, step into a left forward stance while executing the low block and CHAMBERING the other hand. forms are full of instances like this. Maybe my experience with traditional styles it not what should be in question... the schools I have had experience with do not chamber while sparring and workinhg "fighting techniques" but do otherwise. Look at one step and three step sparring in TKD - chambering everywhere - at least in all of the TKD that I have seen.
-ShortySeven©
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]
Come not between the dragon and his wrath...
-
SevenStar - Don't take my comments personally. They're intended to clarify my argument, rather than actually being directed at you. :)
As for the guys here who don't spar. Well, let's face it. I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the actual kungfu practitioners who post on this board. KFO is great for passing boring 5 minute intervals at work, but it's certainly not a prime choice for being a source of kungfu talent.
As for your sucky NHB school situation, good for calling them out. We've got a number of schools like that up here as well. But that's just my point. Most of everybody is crappy. The good guys, they're rare, but you can find them in every 'martial walk' of life.
-
BTW - if I wanted to argue that ferocity is way different in NHB-style fights than on the streets, I'd cite all those BJJ matches that last multiple hours. Now that's some pretty ****ing testimony. :)
-
"Really?!?!? I must of missed that one. I spar. Which of you out there don't spar?"
check the posts man, you'll find it. I'll try to find a few of them and post links. One in particular you can search for was a guy named kenpomon who was wondering if he should switch styles or cross train because his teacher said that sparring did not adequately teach you how to fight.
-ShortySeven©
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]
Come not between the dragon and his wrath...
-
"BTW - if I wanted to argue that ferocity is way different in NHB-style fights than on the streets, I'd cite all those BJJ matches that last multiple hours. Now that's some pretty ****ing testimony."
LMAO!! I'll give you that, but I'm not talking about pure BJJ. I'm talking about MMA, boxing, etc. This is something else That I have seen and that has been talked about elsewhere on this forum, perhaps under some of the fear threads. I have seen several traditional stylists get waxed on the street because either 1. they froze or 2. they were not as aggressive as their opponent and couldn't land anything decent. I know this does not apply to all traditional styles - hel1, I train in one - but from WHAT I HAVE SEEN (note, this all imlies personal experience, and does not include ALL traditional schools and styles) many stylists lack that agression. I don't attribute this to the style itself, but possibly some of the training methods, such as light contact and point sparring.
-ShortySeven©
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]
Come not between the dragon and his wrath...
-
I know what you mean about chambering. But it's like I've been saying all along - most of everything is crap. Most "traditional" schools are crap. That's a pretty good example of definite crap.
I honestly think somewhere along the lines people confused pulling and takedown techniques as chambered punches, and by happenstance, the flawed teaching spread like wildfire. A martial historian could get pretty specific as to when, where, and why this happened. But I don't wanna style-bash, so I'll just throw it out there.
-
Thank you Nemo!
As for what you quoted though -
"But I feel that in order to prepare for the shock and violence of a high level fight, you have to train at least in some way the concepts of NHB.
That means cross-training, sparring with resistent opponents, and doing realistic drills, heavy bag, ground and pound dummies, etc."
that was ryu's post. But from seeing several posts by him, I assume he means different ranges.
-ShortySeven©
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]
Come not between the dragon and his wrath...
-
In my experience, both aggression and freezing problems spring directly from not sparring enough.
-
NHB, a streetfight? Not quite. Not taking away from the fighters. BUT. In a street fight you have about 15 seconds to get the heck out of the way of the flying beer bottles and the "chick-chick" of somebodies 9mm. Nobody fights fair on the street. Nobody waits for the opening bell. Nobody tells their friends "hey, don't jump in if I'm in trouble". Nobody gets to tap out. Nobody puts their weapons aside with the barkeep. Nobody goes away without the last hit. And if you do tap him out, he isn't going to just go home. He will return with more force, more friends, or both. One on one on the street is very rare. Troublemakers always have a group. I've seen big guys melt and totally punk out at the first sign of a confrontation. If anyone here is going to talk about a street fight then please, talk from the scene not from the dream.
Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com
-
"I honestly think somewhere along the lines people confused pulling and takedown techniques as chambered punches, and by happenstance, the flawed teaching spread like wildfire."
I definitely agree there. I fell into this category. I was taught that they were chambered punches. It was the japanese friend i referred to that showed me that they were actually breaks, takedowns, etc. My current sifu also shows us the takedowns, locks etc. that appear to be chambers. I was stunned when I first started seeing all of this as I just never knew.
-ShortySeven©
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]
Come not between the dragon and his wrath...
-
"In my experience, both aggression and freezing problems spring directly from not sparring enough."
Yeah, that's what I've been saying. that and point sparring. When you do all that point sparring, then experience a full contact hit, the whole game changes. The first time I experienced it, it's like I forgot every techique I had ever learned. I was lost. I'm used to dealing with it now however, and don't have that problem.
-ShortySeven©
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]
Come not between the dragon and his wrath...
-
*sigh*
Abel, he never said NHB was like a street fight, nor did anyone else. He compared how much of the NHB training is extremely beneficial in a fight, which it undoubtedly is.
-ShortySeven©
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]
Come not between the dragon and his wrath...
-
Wow!
This got a lot of responses quickly!
The discussion here is really a great one, and I'm actually kinda sorry I missed out on it until now. First off, SevenStar, thank you for defending my post, and adding your knowledge to it. :)
Braden, thank you also for your input here because I can definately see your point about some of the "unskilled" people claiming to teach NHB out there. There are many "street/NHB" styled systems popping up that do absolutely terrible when put to the test. To not mention that is wrong on my part, and that's the very thing I do not wish to become.
You may very well be right that some of the "traditional" styles used to be (and still are) practiced with the same mentality of NHB fighters. I think that mentality will make anyone good as a fighter. Like SevenStar, however, it has been my experience that I have not seen many "traditional" stylists who fit into that mentality. But I really hate to use these terms anyway because you can't really get away from stereotypes. No offense to you at all, I really enjoyed what you said. :)
I do hold to the notion that NHB really does give a kinesthetic feel of what it's like to be in a fight. However, to be honest with you, because of my nature, I am not looking to "NHB fight" often LOL. I want to learn what works (and that can change) but I do not like fighting. There's a dilemna.
I think that it would be hard to argue, however, that "traditional" (I'm starting to hate that word :) ) styles do in fact train like NHB artists. If that was the case, the NHB "style" of fighting would not be a new phenomenum.
However, I fear (respect) someone who is good at their style regardless what it is, and try to hold a humble attitude as much as I can. :(
I remember the last challenge match I had with a good boxer/streetfighter, and even though I won, I had to respect the guy's power and strength even on the ground or else I myself might have gotten choked out. You can never tell who is tough and who is not because of "style"...definately can't get cocky about that stuff.
To answer some more q's.
My self-evaluation and training evaluation is a constant evolution. :) I used to see that as an annoyance...but now I think I'm realizing the nice journey that really is.
And, Yes I was talking about ranges in fighting, not necessarily multiple "style" training.
SevenStar, again thanks for the great insights here! You're definately an example of someone of a "traditional" lineage that I'd be afraid to go up against! LOL ;)
To everyone else, please feel free to continue this conversation. I feel it will be a good one.
"traditionalists" (there's that word again) and "NHB" people have been arguing for years...
Who says they can't get along and learn from each other?
Ryu
judo legend, Masahiko Kimura
"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."
Posting Permissions
- You may not post new threads
- You may not post replies
- You may not post attachments
- You may not edit your posts
-
Forum Rules
Reply With Quote