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Thread: Pendulum Effect

  1. #16
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    I see what you mean Jon. Pretty much what I had in my mind when you first posted. I'd always been told the withdrawal was to develop elbow power (jaang dai lik). David Peterson does show an "application" as a rear elbow strike on his SNT DVD (related as an anecdote).

    IMO, elbow does not travel in straight line, otherwise the shoulder rises like you say. Elbow needs to stay low, and drawn back with energy not in some lazy half-arsed way. The elbow is not chambered at the level of the armpit.
    Last edited by CFT; 03-25-2011 at 03:03 AM.

  2. #17
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    yeh we just call that the wrist roll and pull your elbow back.
    It can be used as an elbow but normally done with pivoting to keep the line as straight as possible.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    Fair enough. so what would you consider to be the application of a huen?
    A Huen is used to move an opponent's arm from one side to the other (inside or outside). It's obvious on the Jong regardless of lineage. There are clips of many WC people demonstrating that application including WSL.
    Last edited by Phil Redmond; 03-26-2011 at 08:17 AM.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Spencer if you or anybody else think that huen sau is for escaping grabs then you are living in dreamland!! I used to have the same ideas myself.
    I will re-post part of my original response for you Graham.

    I learnt how to deflect wrist grabs with huensau as this is generally what women would experience. Now, I don't know about you, but I have seen an angry boyfriend grab his missus by the wrist plenty of times in an attempt to drag her off so the whole approach makes total sense to me.

    Once you've huen'd and grabbed the pullback can be seen as a cum la or seizing technique as long as you understand the mechanics of angling so you don't pull someone straight into your own face.

    Elbow to behind, using huen to change inside/outside are all genuine methods too imho and so it stands to good reason as to why we repeat the technique at the end of every set. Its repeated for it's importance and can be trained throughout your Wing Chun journey...
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  5. #20
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    I'v used huen to strip grips in BJJ rolling effectively, go and no gi, though you usually have to employ the other hand as well, as you do in WC, or a foot or shin.

    I agree with Phil's statement of huen's basic purpose.
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  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    I'v used huen to strip grips in BJJ rolling effectively, go and no gi, though you usually have to employ the other hand as well, as you do in WC, or a foot or shin.

    I agree with Phil's statement of huen's basic purpose.
    good insight into why we dont use huen sao like that, you said it yourself , it requires 2 hands and maybe even a foot to fight one grabbed wrist ....not a skill to develop.

    I would bet guys are using tut sao aka shaving hands to escape grips too. like my instructor said to me " only a fool would think this ".

    Huen is a transitional move from one action to another not an 'application' unto itself.

    I have been wrist grabbed more times than I can count in REAL fights, bar/nightclub/ street-fights...never used a huen sao . Always accompanied with force and aggressive intent to do me harm. IOW its not a stand in front of each other calmly in class and do a nice calm wrist escape while we both just look at each other.
    Sometimes a guy attacking would grab my leading wrist coming in low to avoid a strike from me,
    I used a palm strike to back of head with good results, other times both my wrists got grabbed as they charged me trying to control my hands. I used a different approach in fighting from my own experiences that involves angling like toi ma to a seung ma step . A combo of chum kil shifting + turning to face , dynamic fighting with movement similar to WSL VT.
    I use lan sao or bi gee lifting and lowering elbow to break grips AND re aquire positions as Im being bull charged at the same time , then flow with the guy as he passes my shift and slam into a wall or car then hit them or 'escort' them from the premises
    We can all find a reason for huen, yours isnt mine.

    When we turn a knife high to low the wrist huens , watch the 1st opening gang fight in the beginning of " Gangs of New York " and watch Daniel Day Lewis wield the chopper
    NOW thats a huen sao hes got some good moves , huenchop and other hand stabs , next !
    reminds me of VT knife.
    Last edited by k gledhill; 03-28-2011 at 03:03 PM.

  7. #22
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    We can all find a reason for huen, yours isnt mine.
    that's correct.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

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  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    that's correct.

    you use 2 hands to fight one. I try not to, so yes correct.

  9. #24
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    you use 2 hands to fight one. I try not to, so yes correct.
    I use two hands to drag the arm and nullify both it and the other with a cross-sleeve control followed by a sweep or moving to the back, generally. So to say I use 2 hands to fight one isn't the totality of what's going on and is somewhat disingenuous.

    It works very well for me in a specific context against resisting opponents.

    not a skill to develop
    Opinions vary.

    What you try or don't try to do is of secondary interest to my own experience and tuition. Despite your stellar background and legendary teachers.
    Last edited by anerlich; 03-28-2011 at 04:10 PM.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

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  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    I use two hands to drag the arm and nullify both it and the other with a cross-sleeve control followed by a sweep or moving to the back, generally. So to say I use 2 hands to fight one isn't the totality of what's going on and is somewhat disingenuous.

    It works very well for me in a specific context against resisting opponents.



    Opinions vary.

    What you try or don't try to do is of secondary interest to my own experience and tuition. Despite your stellar background and legendary teachers.
    I use two hands to scratch my a r s e. no skill there either.
    But seriously, We do use 2 hands on occasions, but as a means to recover back to the skilled part of NOT having to. A skill I might add that you dont just do when you feel like it. Ergo your opponent wont be doing it back to you, so you can let them fight your one arm with their two, while your other arm is free to scratch your arse or other idea like hit them....or whatever it is your tuition gave you ; )

    opinions are like ....we all have one.
    Last edited by k gledhill; 03-28-2011 at 05:18 PM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    We do use 2 hands on occasions, but as a means to recover back to the skilled part of NOT having to. A skill I might add that you dont just do when you feel like it. Ergo your opponent wont be doing it back to you, so you can let them fight your one arm with their two, while your other arm is free to scratch your arse or other idea like hit them....or whatever it is your tuition gave you ; )

    opinions are like ....we all have one.
    Funny, I always thought WC taught me to use two hands together. One may block while the other hits, but on some occassions you would use two hands together like the Pak Jarn Sau which some believe is an arm break. Also, anytime you wish to control rather than strike I would say you need to use two hands in concert and WC has plenty of control methods if one is open to them. Being a former cop I know I had to utilize control rather than strikes many times.

    Of course the simplest response to any type of grab is to hit the opponent if you are able, but there are times when hitting simply is not an option. Then again I was always of the impression that it took more skill to control than to hit..................perhaps those who do not know how to utilize two hands together are unable to use control and maybe are of a lower skill level
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  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Funny, I always thought WC taught me to use two hands together. One may block while the other hits, but on some occassions you would use two hands together like the Pak Jarn Sau which some believe is an arm break. Also, anytime you wish to control rather than strike I would say you need to use two hands in concert and WC has plenty of control methods if one is open to them. Being a former cop I know I had to utilize control rather than strikes many times.

    Of course the simplest response to any type of grab is to hit the opponent if you are able, but there are times when hitting simply is not an option. Then again I was always of the impression that it took more skill to control than to hit..................perhaps those who do not know how to utilize two hands together are unable to use control and maybe are of a lower skill level
    It isnt required that you have to hit a guy to control with one arm., we can control a bridge from refacing us with one or the other single arm as we also aim to hit with the SAME ARM...iow not grab the other guys wrist as a controlling lop while the other hits alone . Whether we hit or control with leading arm is our call. Because you DONT know this way you have little recourse but to ALWAYS use two hands to strike or control with one while the other hits aka using two hands to fight one....been there done that, threw it over my shoulder like the sack of sh t it was and , walked on....smiling I might add .

    If you dont know how to use one arm to act like 2, you have no choice.
    We use two hands for lop sao to wrist and elbow, like you said we can view it as an arm break BUT we dont, we see it as redirecting a line of force we can't turn with one hand ...iow we are forced to utilize two hands, stop attacking for a split second to make a guy look away , then recommence our attack one arm leading and recycling to attack again and so on.
    Last edited by k gledhill; 03-28-2011 at 06:46 PM. Reason: 't

  13. #28
    I give up ! if you have 3 hands use them all at once

  14. #29
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    To test if any particular movement is correct, attach as much weight as you can handle to parts of the body and test the movement. The purpose is not for building the muscles, but to find how to move most effectively and efficiently. You are your own best teacher.

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  15. #30
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    opinions are like ....we all have one.
    I have agreement with your expanded opinions, FWIW.

    I give up ! if you have 3 hands use them all at once
    One of the tenets of jiu jitsu is to ensure you are using all your limbs and grips at once. Generally not all on the same part of your opponents' body for significant periods, but in some situations the superiority of two against one is just what you need, especially against stronger people.

    There is a double larp sao in bil jee, and in the dummy kicking set, IIRC. Lots of double blocks (or "interceptions" for the pedants) with the knives against the pole.

    Though, yes, we did originally start this discussument about huen.
    Last edited by anerlich; 03-28-2011 at 09:08 PM.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

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