Pendulum Effect

[ShortBridge]

I don't want to start a linage debate or anything like that, but I've got a question and observation about a movement that occurs in most of the wing chun forms that is expressed a little differently family to family. Hopefully, I'll be able to be clear, I don't know all the Chinese terms that some of you clearly do. But, here goes:

Using Si Nim Tao as an example, anytime we heun sao at the end of a section and withdraw our elbow/hand back into it's chamber position, I notice that some families do this fairly linearly and others have more of a swoop, downward curving and then up into the chamber position. I've played with it both ways, but here's what started occurring to me. If I'm focusing my energy on my elbow, it really can't follow anything except it's natural pendulum arc unless I contort my shoulder, which I of course don't want to do. Once my elbow clears my body, then it can certainly start it's natural upswing. Conversely, as much as I like to think about pulling it straight back, I don't think that's physiologically possible without adjusting with my shoulder.

I have more freedom of movement with my forearm and hand of course, but if I should be focusing on my elbows as I think I should, then that's really superficial, right? It seems the most efficient thing to do is to let me hand be pulled naturally by the elbow, which should result in a fairly subtle arc.

The same type of movements, of course, exist in Chum Kiu and Bil Ge (sorry if I botch spelling of Chinese terms)

I'm curious as to how some of you view this. I think it's entirely possible that I'm missing something important, but I wanted to throw the question/observation out and see what you all thought.

Thanks in advance,

[k gledhill]

Pendulum elbow low and against the body in and out, same for pole when we raise and displace using sharp elbow retractions...
In SLT we move elbows along body to push out to center line...when elbow extends to the point it wants to leave the line we are striking...slt teaches the elbow to stay fixed to the center
line before striking tan or jum elbow ...

[Lee Chiang Po]

Jon, you are not just rechambering a fist. The Huen is a technique against a wrist grab or grip. You actually are able to reverse it. Retracting and rechambering is actually a grip and pull. The arm should not be left to fall in the arc like that, which is simply letting it go limp more than anything else. When you pull or jerk an opponent toward you, it is stronger if you pull it directly up the center line so to speak. The circle of the huen can be done both directions as needed.
I have watched a number of people doing the forms on Utube, and most of them are just making robotic moves as quickly as possible. They are just showing their skill of doing these movements quickly. But, each move is worthy of proper and complete application. Before anyone can do it complete and proper they have to know it complete and proper. You have to know the method and the purpose of each and every move in a form.
There is nothing mysterious or in need of deep interpretation in any of the Wing Chun forms. You just need a complete knowledge of each and every move you are making.
Now, when you are pulling, the elbow skirts the side of the chest and backwards as it retracts the fist below the arm pit. It comes in almost a flat manner and in a somewhat straight line. It is not a pendelem, but a pull.

[k gledhill]

Jon, you are not just rechambering a fist. The Huen is a technique against a wrist grab or grip. You actually are able to reverse it. Retracting and rechambering is actually a grip and pull. The arm should not be left to fall in the arc like that, which is simply letting it go limp more than anything else. When you pull or jerk an opponent toward you, it is stronger if you pull it directly up the center line so to speak. The circle of the huen can be done both directions as needed.
I have watched a number of people doing the forms on Utube, and most of them are just making robotic moves as quickly as possible. They are just showing their skill of doing these movements quickly. But, each move is worthy of proper and complete application. Before anyone can do it complete and proper they have to know it complete and proper. You have to know the method and the purpose of each and every move in a form.
There is nothing mysterious or in need of deep interpretation in any of the Wing Chun forms. You just need a complete knowledge of each and every move you are making.
Now, when you are pulling, the elbow skirts the side of the chest and backwards as it retracts the fist below the arm pit. It comes in almost a flat manner and in a somewhat straight line. It is not a pendelem, but a pull.

application ! I have to disagree.

[Lee Chiang Po]

application ! I have to disagree.

Fair enough. so what would you consider to be the application of a huen?

[Grumblegeezer]

Using Si Nim Tao as an example, anytime we heun sao at the end of a section and withdraw our elbow/hand back into it's chamber position, I notice that some families do this fairly linearly and others have more of a swoop, downward curving and then up into the chamber position. I've played with it both ways, but here's what started occurring to me. If I'm focusing my energy on my elbow, it really can't follow anything except it's natural pendulum arc unless I contort my shoulder, which I of course don't want to do. Once my elbow clears my body, then it can certainly start it's natural upswing. Conversely, as much as I like to think about pulling it straight back, I don't think that's physiologically possible without adjusting with my shoulder...

The same type of movements, of course, exist in Chum Kiu and Bil Ge (sorry if I botch spelling of Chinese terms)I'm curious as to how some of you view this.

You are entirely correct. When I first switched from a branch of "Chinese Kenpo" to WC, then WT back in the late 70s, I continued to do the level, linear elbow retraction you described, probably as a vestige of the somewhat "karate-like" kung-fu I had studied previously. I visualized the application both as a strong grab and as a rear elbow strike. And, as you pointed out, such a movement invariably caused my shoulder to rise and also made my technique rather rigid and ineffective.

Later, I finally realized that what you called "the pendulum" will help keep your shoulder dropped and relaxed, and will actually lend power to the technique. As far as applications go, there are several (including a rear elbow strike) but one that I do not teach is to pull an opponent's arm back inward. In the WC, WT, and now the VT that I am learning, we avoid withdrawing energy in towards our core! Yes, we can use the huen sau to dissolve a wrist grab, but we follow that with forward energy. Honestly, I feel it is a mistake to try to interpret the applications of SNT in such a strictly sequential manner. As often stated, SNT is like an alphabet to be used in myriad ways, not a sequential self-defense routine!

[k gledhill]

Fair enough. so what would you consider to be the application of a huen?

not application, simply a transitional move from one action to another ensuing action.
i.e. tan to fok to jum , without knowing what a guy is doing with his elbows [tan/fok/jum] everyone looks at the nice circley wristy thing he does in SLT .Then they copy the circle wrist with no idea about elbow skills . Because they dont know the elbow skill development they look for a reason they do the circle thing, they make it a wrist escape, a eye slash, a salutation etc...everything BUT the elbow behind it we are all doing as we type....you just havent had the sophistication of 'simple mindless idea' shown to you, so you/we/us, seek a myriad of alternatives to simply hitting a guy with a elbow allowing simultaneous attack/defense skills.
Tut sao becomes a wrist grab escape if a guy grabs my wrist down in fornt of my hips ? really.
I have seen some use it to circumnavigate an arm blocking their path...slow ? yeah !

etc...

[bennyvt]

the elbow shouldnt be pulled back when doing a heun sao. if you do that you pull the person into you instead of redirecting him. people only do this to make the palm harder. It should be a tiny movement to train short range power.

[Graham H]

the elbow shouldnt be pulled back when doing a heun sao. if you do that you pull the person into you instead of redirecting him. people only do this to make the palm harder. It should be a tiny movement to train short range power.

Say whaaaaaaaat?

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Jon, you are not just rechambering a fist. The Huen is a technique against a wrist grab or grip...

... There is nothing mysterious or in need of deep interpretation in any of the Wing Chun forms. You just need a complete knowledge of each and every move you are making.

Nice post!

An entire period of time was spent learning this at a very early stage in my training. Especially huen using the fuhao, or tiger mouth, to escape and regain control from grabs.

The 'chambered fist' I call 'paokuen', and fme it is trained in the 'basic' forms in a linear motion and can be applied either way depending on objective. Half moon shapes are found everywhere in Wing Chun and is normally termed as a 'sickle' motion rather than 'pendulum' motion, but each to their own. I can see how you may think the straight line pullback hinders the relaxation of the shoulder, but this also means that your shoulder has not settled enough for drilling paokuen! This is a basic requirement for beginners and needs supervision and proper guidance imho to avoid silly injuries.

[bennyvt]

are we talking about the heun sao in the third section with the jut sao and garn sao or are we talking about the wrist roll done after every movement.
I was talking the ones in the third section.

[Graham H]

Spencer if you or anybody else think that huen sau is for escaping grabs then you are living in dreamland!! I used to have the same ideas myself.

These things never happen in "real" fights. The chances of somebody grabbing your wrist is next to nothing. If somebody were to grab my wrist I would hit them with my other fist. If somebody were to try and grab both wrists (which is stupid) then I would have already landed several strikes. I think you should train with some people that will not co-operate with your funny circling actions. If somebody with an ounce of strength grabbbed your wrist I can assure that huen sau would be impossible.

[Grumblegeezer]

Seems a shame how differences of opinion so quickly degenerate into personal attacks. I believe someone can have a different opinion than I do without being a total idiot. Guess I'm a bit odd that way.

[Hendrik]

I don't want to start a linage debate or anything like that, but I've got a question and observation about a movement that occurs in most of the wing chun forms that is expressed a little differently family to family. Hopefully, I'll be able to be clear, I don't know all the Chinese terms that some of you clearly do. But, here goes:

Using Si Nim Tao as an example, anytime we heun sao at the end of a section and withdraw our elbow/hand back into it's chamber position, I notice that some families do this fairly linearly and others have more of a swoop, downward curving and then up into the chamber position. I've played with it both ways, but here's what started occurring to me. If I'm focusing my energy on my elbow, it really can't follow anything except it's natural pendulum arc unless I contort my shoulder, which I of course don't want to do. Once my elbow clears my body, then it can certainly start it's natural upswing. Conversely, as much as I like to think about pulling it straight back, I don't think that's physiologically possible without adjusting with my shoulder.

I have more freedom of movement with my forearm and hand of course, but if I should be focusing on my elbows as I think I should, then that's really superficial, right? It seems the most efficient thing to do is to let me hand be pulled naturally by the elbow, which should result in a fairly subtle arc.

The same type of movements, of course, exist in Chum Kiu and Bil Ge (sorry if I botch spelling of Chinese terms)

I'm curious as to how some of you view this. I think it's entirely possible that I'm missing something important, but I wanted to throw the question/observation out and see what you all thought.

Thanks in advance,

This is a classical case where the training is lost due to non nature applications and artificial disturbance.

The fact of that move is just so that it naturally loosing up every joints from the tip of the finger to the feet. That is the training to operate the joints in the whole body.

Set such as SLT is natural based as the top priority, applications are not the goal.

[ShortBridge]

I appreciate everyone's responses. I'll leave the debate on how to fight to you guys, let me try to clarify my original question. I have few different ideas about application and I do have a good sifu who I've discussed these things with, but I'm interested in broad perspective too. (which he encourages)

I originally decided not to link to videos because I didn't want to get into a discussion about who these people were or how their kung fu was, but I think an illustration would help. I also used SLT as an example, but I could have just as easily referenced the other forms. What I've observed is that some linage are loopier than others in this expression.

The term "pendulum" is just one that I applied after considering the physics of this movement. It's not one that I was taught. (nor was "loopier")

A disclaimer on these two videos: I don't know who these players are or what linage they are. I didn't watch either video all the way through, only the first bit to find examples of the expression I was trying to describe. So, I neither endorse nor suggest criticism of them, I'm just using them for examples. Had I looked a little longer, I could have found a dozen other examples of either type of expression, I just picked the first two that I thought showed it clearly and didn't start with a montage set to music or a speech.

The first is an example of someone appearing to come straight-ish back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k

The second is an example of someone expressing a loop or sickle or arc or whatever we want to say in the withdrawal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs983q6ra8M

So, my original observation was that if I just observe the line of travel of the elbow from front to back, there is a natural line for it. It is neither straight nor overly curved. Because the bone between my elbow and shoulder is a fixed, inflexible object, if I keep my shoulder relaxed as we do, then the elbow can really only follow one path which is a shallow arc. The elbow is a pendulum, hung from my shoulder by a plumb line, which is my upper arm. I can mimic either a flat trajectory or a more dramatically curved one with my forearm, wrist and hand and I'm suggesting that that's what we see in these videos and others, but I can't really change the path that my elbow follows without doing something unnatural with my body or shoulder. Since I tend to think mostly about energy to and movement of my elbow, especially, but not exclusively to this section of this form (as an example), why would I chose one way or another of expressing my lower arm's path?

I'm not without my own ideas about it, but I'm interested in learning your perspectives.

Thanks again for your responses and I hope I've clarified my question somewhat.