Knees.

[David Jamieson]

Not using them as a striking tool, but rather I have another question.

I have heard several people complain about knee problems from Kung Fu practice.

I myself have been a practitioner of Traditional Chinese martial arts, particularly Sil Lum Kung Fu for the better part of 2 decades and I cna honestly say, I've never experienced an issue with my knees.

North Shaolin or Southern, I simply have not encountered a knee problem.

In some of your opinions, what is it that is going wrong? Is teh student genetically inferior? Is the student doing something wrong? Is the teacher teaching something wrong?

What's up with the bad knees? I don't understand because it's never even mildly happened to me.

I pulled my back doing a grueling CNY Lion Dance march once, but that's it outside of bumps and scrapes lumps and bruises from mix ups etc.

so, why? anyone have any ideas what could be happening here?

[Lucas]

I have the opposite experience. i messed my left knee up when i was younger from skateboarding, but when i started training kungfu my strength and flexability increased significantly to the point that i can lower and raise myself on that leg. i took a somewhat extended period of time off and i noticed the knee reverting slowly back to its old state, cleared up when i went back into training.

it is not 100% but i know without a doubt that the kungfu training keeps it strong and as best as it can be without having a surgery.

[Lucas]

i think modern wushu has something to do with it. ive noticed there is a lot of fusion with modern and trad training. a lot of the modern stuff can F u up real bad if you progress faster than your body can handle...ive seen more than one acl pop from people studying contemp material.

[Punch.HeadButt]

I think a large part of it is people are taught and told to perform certain stances that can put a large amount of strain on the knees when done incorrectly when the student isn't ready for it. Going through motion that drops you into Pu Bu and brings you back up isn't something you should be doing on your first day if you are not already a fairly athletic person. If you've been a couch potato all your life and just decide to start kung fu because it looks cool, and you're immediately worked through those low stances, sweeps and transitions, it'll do damage (in my thinking, I'm not a med. professional). I think this is mostly a problem in heavily form-based schools, as making the forms look good is what they strive for and pressure their students into.

The knees need to be strong before you start expecting them to support those stances, IMO.

[YouKnowWho]

what is it that is going wrong?

Don't twist your knee. Many peole hurt their knee because some of their bow-arrow stance has left foot point west but right foot point northeast (instead of northwest). This will cause a twisting on the right knee. Few years later, that right knee will have problem.

The outer horse stance will have the same problem.

http://scienceblogs.com/zooillogix/karate%20chimp.jpg

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Knee problems are common in all sports, but as far as Kung Fu if could be from deep stance training, cartilage break up from years of thowing kicks, damage from a throw or sweep, incorrect or poor stretching, I mean there are a lot of variables and what ifs that can go into a knee injury. And genetics could play a factor too. But back to my original statement, all sports, activities, exercises, ect. knee injuries are common, it's just how it is.

Continuous tension or strain is not good. My uncle laid carpet for several years and now can barely walk from the constant pressure put on him.

[Shaolinlueb]

i had bad knees from a track accident in high school. kung fu helped get rid of a lot of the pain actually. then when i had my lapse in training, my pain started to come back. i keep my hips flexible and my legs strong and they are getting better.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are many factors that can lead to knee problems and most of then are genetic, some people are born with "bad knees" or at least with a greater potential for bad knees.
Injury never helps, that's for sure.
I have bad knees, buT I don't know if it was from years of MA like karate and judo ( too much kneeling, lol) or from injuries while playing football, but I do know that as a young one I already had knee pains that were a result from instability in the knee area.
I am sure that predisposed me to it, but there is also the fact that it never held me back in my ability to run or kick, not at all.
As a teenager I was in the top 10 in the 100 and 60 meter sprints.

[Lucas]

i dont study bjj, but ive heard from friends that its hard on the knees. one guy i know quit studying after 5 years because he said it was messing his knees up.

[Frost]

i dont study bjj, but ive heard from friends that its hard on the knees. one guy i know quit studying after 5 years because he said it was messing his knees up.

juo is hard on the knees, BJJ is hard on the groin and hip flexors

[David Jamieson]

juo is hard on the knees, BJJ is hard on the groin and hip flexors

Boxing can be hard on the face.

[Frost]

Boxing can be hard on the face.

smartar$e

To attempt a sensible answer the knee is a complex joint hich has an awful lot of force and weight put upon it on a day to da basis....added to this it affected by tightness in the hip flexers, glutes IT band etc, so knee problems can be caused by a number of factors not directly related to the integrity of the knee itself

[taai gihk yahn]

smartar$e

To attempt a sensible answer the knee is a complex joint hich has an awful lot of force and weight put upon it on a day to da basis....added to this it affected by tightness in the hip flexers, glutes IT band etc, so knee problems can be caused by a number of factors not directly related to the integrity of the knee itself

QFT +1,000,000

if someone comes in with knee pain not the result of direct trauma, if you only treat the knee, you are going to loose; feet, ankles, tib/fib, ITB, HS, hips, pelvis, sacrum / iliac, lumbars, heck, even thoracics, shoulders and in some rare occasions, temporal bones (really) can be at the "root" (with all sort of issues inbetween); the knees are the whipping boy, because they are designed to mostly move in the saggital plane / around a tranvserse axis, so don't compensate well for force vectors in other planes / around other axes;

the good news is that if you fix the other stuff well, the knee issue can decrease dramatically;

of course, if you blow out your ACL, it's a different story...

addeddum - glutes are almost never "tight", as opposed to HS, psoas, ITB - they are more often inhibited as a result of the aforementioned hyper-facilitated flexor muscles; you have to disinhibt and get them going again so that they function properly during gait to get good forward propulsion via closed chain hip extension during mid to late stance phase, which is when hamstrings should be turned off after eccentrically slowing knee extension during terminal swing phase (many people fire hammies to propell fwd, bec HS are weak hip flexors, which is one reason the knee can get upset)

[Frost]

QFT +1,000,000

if someone comes in with knee pain not the result of direct trauma, if you only treat the knee, you are going to loose; feet, ankles, tib/fib, ITB, HS, hips, pelvis, sacrum / iliac, lumbars, heck, even thoracics, shoulders and in some rare occasions, temporal bones (really) can be at the "root" (with all sort of issues inbetween); the knees are the whipping boy, because they are designed to mostly move in the saggital plane / around a tranvserse axis, so don't compensate well for force vectors in other planes / around other axes;

the good news is that if you fix the other stuff well, the knee issue can decrease dramatically;

of course, if you blow out your ACL, it's a different story...

i love it when you do this

we have a PT that grapples at our club and it amazes me how many issues are NOT caused by where the pain is felt but by another part of the body and the movement patterns used to compensate for that injury

[xcakid]

I have bad knees, but it is not due to stances, wushu, etc. It is due to Sanda training and competing when I was young. I have dislocated lft knee. Has had ligament tears in both knees, numerous of them throughout my training.

I also have chondromalacia from running. And after a 10yrs hiatus from CMA and returning 4yrs ago. I developed tendonitis on both knees. Also over the past 4yrs, I have torn a meniscus and currently nursing a torn MCL.

Yes I am 42 and still sparring. HARD!