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Thread: Skill vs. Strength/speed

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    oh i dont know i did tai chi for about 7 years with a few guys who had studied it for over 2 decades they were pretty good but not well known masters, but hey it gives me a reference point right.

    Now the question is how much grappling have you done with top level guys, how many competitions have you done so you have a frame of reference when you talk about not needing to use strength in tat setting....how much extenral training have you done so you can actually compare the two and decide which is superior
    Yeah, you know what's funny, how you totally ignored the point where I basically agreed with MK that BJJ probably embodies many of the same principles as the so-called internal arts.

    It's funny how binary people are. Are you a computer? Are you going to melt down if I present a slightly different point of view?

    2+2=5...oh ****, look out, he might explode

    EO

  2. #122
    ju jitsu is internal kung fu

    helio= internal master

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat™®LLC Practical Wombat Method. international academy retreat

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    I honestly would love to try to uproot a tai chi guy. I've always wanted to try. Not by brutishly pushing tai chi demo style, but with the skills I've learned as a thrower. I've never had the chance, but I'd love the opportunity. I'm saying any throwing combination, sweeps, skilled sacrifices... the whole 9 yards minus striking just to test this "root" concept. Do it in a timed scenario... say something like "knock this guy down in 30 seconds or less" type of thing. And I wouldn't be doing it to be an A-hole. I'd be willing to do it in private (no cameras - and no telling the results if I succeeded). I would however be the biggest supporter of Tai Chi and I'd be super vocal in my support if I honestly gave it my all and tried to throw a guy and absolutely couldn't.

    Seriously - I'm curious in a curious and friendly way but I want absolute proof of concept. I am definitely not a my style is better and I'm a tough guy type of person.

    I just want to know if there's something real in root training.
    As someone who does a style closely related to the other taiji styles, I think there's a lot of people whose view of root is limited by their experience. Root is one concept, but it's not a solution to all problems, and it's not unique to taiji. Stationary root is not even a good goal.

    If you go to throw me, and I can put weight where it makes your throw impossible, that's a good answer, and is rooting. If I can move so it changes our relative leverages and prevents your throw, that's a good thing, and if I can do so using footwork that allows me to do it well balanced given all forces involved, this is root in motion and is a good thing. This is not unique to taiji.

    What root isn't is the ability to statically stop a viable attack. What it isn't is a state on it's own, when discussing fighting. No matter how rooted one routinely is in all stances when shadow boxing, doing form, etc, if one ends up in the wrong position or relative stance to deal with the opponent's position and relative stance, the more they dig in, the worse it is. In fighting, rootedness isn't how strong your stance is, but that your stance and footwork are competent, strong, and mainly, relevant to what your opponent is doing.

    That's my opinion.

    As an aside, if you're ever in the KC area, feel free to contact me, I get together with a number of guys from different backgrounds here and work clinches and throws a good amount, but I can't promise you some mystical rooting thing, where my root is strong at that moment, I probably won't get thrown, where it's off, where yours is better in motion, I'll get thrown.
    Last edited by KC Elbows; 04-01-2011 at 02:19 PM.
    I would use a blue eyed, blond haired Chechnyan to ruin you- Drake on weapons

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    oh i dont know i did tai chi for about 7 years with a few guys who had studied it for over 2 decades they were pretty good but not well known masters, but hey it gives me a reference point right
    Here's a bit about my lineage of Taiji. I'm not a disciple of the style or anything but I trained with people that were for about 10 years.

    http://www.stltaiji.com/documents/articlefinland.pdf

    EO

  5. #125
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    Good taiji requires developing monster leg strength, forearm strength, shoulder strength, chest and back strength, and using it requires minimizing the dependence on any one muscle group to pull off the move.

    Like everything else.
    I would use a blue eyed, blond haired Chechnyan to ruin you- Drake on weapons

  6. #126
    chen xiaowang's father was killed in the cultural revolution. chen family will never be honest with outsiders. non chen village people are for milking nothing more.

    theres no such thing as taijiquan. there is chen village boxing, a group of various boxing styles practiced by a village of hundreds of people. styles still surviving include 13 ideas soft boxing, 2 road cannon fist and 108 longfist.

    theres nothing unique or special about tai chi philosophy, theyre just grossly exaggerated from long fist.
    tai chi sayings are copy paste from long fist manuals.
    Last edited by bawang; 04-01-2011 at 02:33 PM.

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat™®LLC Practical Wombat Method. international academy retreat

  7. #127
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    Two major problems that arise from people's views on push hands:

    1) Lower level players see higher level players doing well and assume tht, since they are standing there, that rootedness is static, when the higher level players are playing with their own weight distribution by waist control and posture, in effect moving from stance to stance without stepping.

    2) The exclusion of pivots and later, footwork, in many people's push hands, which can work setups for techniques that step through, give a false impression of a set of styles that has constant footwork in their form as styles emphasizing rootedness instead of just using it as another tool.
    I would use a blue eyed, blond haired Chechnyan to ruin you- Drake on weapons

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    I honestly would love to try to uproot a tai chi guy. I've always wanted to try.
    I just want to know if there's something real in root training.
    I'm not really familiar with a rooting concept in Taiji? Much more prevalent in something like Hung Gar, as far as I know.

    In Taiji you are connected to the ground, yes, but you don't really try to resist someone pushing you. Like I said, sounds more like Hung Gar.

    EO

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Olson View Post
    I'm not really familiar with a rooting concept in Taiji? Much more prevalent in something like Hung Gar, as far as I know.

    In Taiji you are connected to the ground, yes, but you don't really try to resist someone pushing you. Like I said, sounds more like Hung Gar.

    EO
    A ton of taiji people stress it a lot, and it is a concept of taiji.

    Rootedness and yeilding are both concepts of taiji. What many people don't understand is how to yeild, at some point there must be a redirect or the opponent acheives their goal and you lose your balance/get hit/get thrown.

    The how requires understanding what is being given you, not just understanding your taiji. You must experience many different people at equal or above your own level in many different arts and approaches to get a good feel for how this works.
    I would use a blue eyed, blond haired Chechnyan to ruin you- Drake on weapons

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    I just want to know if there's something real in root training.
    Many years ago, there was 2 TCMA masters in Taiwan. Every year they met, One guy who claimed to have strong rooting would stay in a low horse stance. The other guy then used a foot sweep to take him down. Years after years, the strong rooting guy could not understand why the other guy always swept him down. Finally, the othr guy told the strong rooting guy, "It has nothing to do with your rooting. It's just simple physics. When I moved your center to be outside of your base, the gravity will take you down."
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 04-01-2011 at 03:26 PM.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Olson View Post
    but you don't really try to resist someone pushing you.
    Onething that I have found out in the past, most of the Taiji guys may have skill against "pushing", but if you use quick "pulling" followed by quick "pushing", they may get confused.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 04-01-2011 at 03:23 PM.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Onething that I have found out in the past, most of the Taiji guys may have skill against "pushing", but if you use quick "pulling" followed by quick "pushing", they may get confused.
    hahahahahahah...sad thing is its true.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  13. #133
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    if someone comes to portland i always refer them to meet gregory fong sifu or duy minh tran sifu. they have good taiji here.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  14. #134
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    Sweet. I have a black belt in an internal art. Judo and wrestling are also internal then. Good to know. Yesterday, I was boxing with a guy, and I made him miss me, which put him off balance. He stepped by me, and I tagged him with two right hooks to the body and a left hook to the melon. I borrowed his strength for sure.

    I couldn't have that black belt, or have made him miss me if I didn't have the strength and endurance to pull it off.

    If a guy is stronger, faster or better than you, when he's tired, he's none of those things. Skill maximizes your effectiveness by amplifying your attributes. And you cannot develop skill if you don't have the attributes needed to constantly test them and refine them under pressure.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

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    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merryprankster View Post
    Sweet. I have a black belt in an internal art. Judo and wrestling are also internal then. Good to know. Yesterday, I was boxing with a guy, and I made him miss me, which put him off balance. He stepped by me, and I tagged him with two right hooks to the body and a left hook to the melon. I borrowed his strength for sure.

    I couldn't have that black belt, or have made him miss me if I didn't have the strength and endurance to pull it off.

    If a guy is stronger, faster or better than you, when he's tired, he's none of those things. Skill maximizes your effectiveness by amplifying your attributes. And you cannot develop skill if you don't have the attributes needed to constantly test them and refine them under pressure.
    Your post is true, but without silk pajamas, you're still external.
    I would use a blue eyed, blond haired Chechnyan to ruin you- Drake on weapons

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