Skill vs. Strength/speed

[Eric Olson]

It's not.



You are predicating this non-argument on woefully misguided assumptions and prejudices.

Efficiency does not preclude strength. Conservation of energy, economy of movement presuppose strength and stamina. What exactly is it that you think is being conserved?

The more muscle you engage, the more energy you consume. The more it taxes your cardio and pulmonary systems. So I'm not sure what you are saying.

If you have no strength how are you going to execute those proper body mechanics?

I didn't say zero strength.

I too want to be a bad ass without all the pain and sweat.

I bet if you packaged these esoteric internal practices the right way you could net some serious $$$$$.

Well you're kind of right. I believe my Taiji teacher used the phrase "diligently lazy". Practicing internal doesn't mean you don't have to practice, but you have to practice to use less.

Since when does age preclude being strong and fast?

Our bodies, and muscle fiber, deteriorates with age. Fact of life, sorry.

How can you apply skill without strength? How can this all powerful skill be brought to bear for any significant duration without stamina?

By having a strategy that isn't dependent on strength...see Taiji

[Eric Olson]

Everything takes just enough strength. Walking up a flight of stairs takes just enoughstrength. Opening a door takes just enough strength. Saying internal martial arts or any martial arts doesn't take strength is like saying you can breathe without oxygen.

See my edits....

EO

[Lucas]

i think it is also different for each person. some people have 'natural' strength. natural genetic strength will persist longer than developed strength in your aging. if you strength train on top of being natrually strong, you can even further your timeline.

i am not of the mindset to use only enough strenght or power as needed. i differ there from many.

some are ok using just enough power to KO someone. I want to cave his face in as best i can. some are ok just using enough strength and energy to throw a man. I want to smash him into the ground so hard he wont get up.

i dont do sport fighting. i dont care to conserve too much energy in a fight because real fights only last seconds, my stamina and endurance is good enough i can go all out in a real fight without having to worry about running out. i want to 'win', and i want to do it right away. if i think i can make contact, im going to go with excessive force.


maybe im a brute in mentality.

however, i also age, and i know my abilities and physical attributes are only around for so long. economy of motion, structure, strategy, understanding, and deception are the qualities i foster for my elder years but i will always use what ever strenght is available to me, what ever that may be at what ever particular year it may be in my life.

[MightyB]

Love me some LaLanne but truth is that we lose a certain percentage of muscle mass as we age.

Not entirely true we're finding out. Read that AARP article I linked.

So, yes, by all means do strength training to preserve your muscle mass. But if you want to be able to fight as you get older, or defend yourself, or whatever, you're not going to do so by being stronger than the next guy.

That's the real delusion here. It's where skill comes into play and even guys that do so-called "external" arts become more "internal" as they get older...meaning they rely less on strength and more on skill. Internal just starts from that premise.

EO

Again not entirely true. Skill development is the same no matter if you're internal or external. Actually - labeling external or internal is a misnomer. There shouldn't be a distinction. External is internal and internal is external. Always been the case.

I'll be honest here - Thinking like this: "Internal just starts from that premise." gets a lot of guys's arses kicked.

Fighting is not pretty - and it's not soft - and it's not something that can be looked at in a purely academic sense. The first time you get kicked in the thigh - hit in the face - put into a RNC - or thrown with uchi mata, you realize this. It's hard, it's sweaty, it's exhausting... at first - then it gets easier with experience. You can't skip the hard part of the learning curve.

[MightyB]

What do boxers do before entering a ring? They loosen up.
What's the key to success in BJJ and Judo? Relaxation under stress.
What do middle distance runners concentrate on to keep the right mix of speed and endurance? Relaxing the hands, forearms, and arms - this in turn keeps your shoulders and neck relaxed which eases your breathing and prevents lactic acid building up too fast.

At the same time- all of those activities require hard physical exertion, mixed with relaxation during stress. I can understand the motivation to try and skip the learning curve by participating in the so-called internal arts... but you can't. I believe all martial arts are internal and external.

[YouKnowWho]

Strength/Power + Speed can also beat skill.

Old Chinese saying said,

一力勝十會 - strength can defeat 10 best skills.
拳不打功 - skill has no match to strength.
盲拳打死老師父 - young strong guy's punches can kill old CMA master.

The reason is simple. If your opponent is stronger than you and your strength is not sufficient to defeat your opponent than you have to borrow your opponent's force. If your opponent is smart enough not let you to borrow his force then you will lose for sure.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

At the same time- all of those activities require hard physical exertion, mixed with relaxation during stress. I can understand the motivation to try and skip the learning curve by participating in the so-called internal arts... but you can't. I believe all martial arts are internal and external.

Ding, Ding, Ding,.......We have a winner!

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The bottom line is this. If you think some 60 year old, fat a**ss Tai Chi master (I say that term loosely) can somehow channel internal energy to defeat a younger, stronger, opponent, particuarly someone who is a wrestler, Judoka, or Shuai Jiao player and knows what real internal and external power is, your a deluded jack wagon.

[YouKnowWho]

even guys that do so-called "external" arts become more "internal" as they get older...meaning they rely less on strength and more on skill. Internal just starts from that premise.

IMO, the best fighting strategy, you

1. attack with your own strength for 3 times, if fail
2. try to borrow your opponent's strength for 3 times, if fail
3. play defense for 3 times, if fail
4. put your tail between your legs and run like hell.

It's always better to finish you fight in the 1st stage and not later. The idea of "borrow force" is always a bad idea because it may make you lazy to build up your own strength.

[Frost]

Love me some LaLanne but truth is that we lose a certain percentage of muscle mass as we age.

So, yes, by all means do strength training to preserve your muscle mass. But if you want to be able to fight as you get older, or defend yourself, or whatever, you're not going to do so by being stronger than the next guy.

That's the real delusion here. It's where skill comes into play and even guys that do so-called "external" arts become more "internal" as they get older...meaning they rely less on strength and more on skill. Internal just starts from that premise.

EO

yep and we all know how those old internal masters are out there kciking a$$ and winning fights...oh wait my bad

You dont have to be stronger than the next guy, but if he is stronger, better conditioned and anywhere near you in terms of skill you are in trouble

[Eric Olson]

What do boxers do before entering a ring? They loosen up.
What's the key to success in BJJ and Judo? Relaxation under stress.
What do middle distance runners concentrate on to keep the right mix of speed and endurance? Relaxing the hands, forearms, and arms - this in turn keeps your shoulders and neck relaxed which eases your breathing and prevents lactic acid building up too fast.

Sounds very efficient....

At the same time- all of those activities require hard physical exertion, mixed with relaxation during stress. I can understand the motivation to try and skip the learning curve by participating in the so-called internal arts... but you can't. I believe all martial arts are internal and external.

Unless you've touched hands with someone that has high internal skill you won't know what the difference is. So unfortunately I can't really explain it to you.

But just to give you an idea, I'm 6' 7" 260 lbs (yeah, not kidding) and I have pushed hands with someone that's twice my age, probably 100 lbs lighter and has toothpicks for arms but that could throw me across the room. It's not because they're stronger, but because they have a higher level of skill.

EO

[Eric Olson]

yep and we all know how those old internal masters are out there kciking a$$ and winning fights...oh wait my bad

You dont have to be stronger than the next guy, but if he is stronger, better conditioned and anywhere near you in terms of skill you are in trouble

It's funny how these conversations always devolve into the same tired old arguments and camps.

Read my original post carefully before chiming in with these tired old statements. Same to you IronEagle.

No one ever said strength, speed, youth or endurance aren't important....or to be contended with. No one ever said not to train for strength or cardio.

I'm saying that in your technique and strategy you should try to be as efficient as possible. And in this realm internal has everyone beat because they start with that mindset from day one.

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sounds very efficient....



Unless you've touched hands with someone that has high internal skill you won't know what the difference is. So unfortunately I can't really explain it to you.

But just to give you an idea, I'm 6' 7" 260 lbs (yeah, not kidding) and I have pushed hands with someone that's twice my age, probably 100 lbs lighter and has toothpicks for arms but that could throw me across the room. It's not because they're stronger, but because they have a higher level of skill.

EO

I have touched hands with high level Tai chi people, some would say even VERY high level.
Their push hands are beyond description.
Of course I have also rolled with very high level BJJ players and their rolling is beyond description.
I have also wreslted with high level wrestlers and their wrestling is beyond description.
I could go on, but the point is that anyone that spends that much time doing something will be very, very good at it.

I wonder how good a swimmer they are?
How fast they can run the 100?
How long it takes them to run a mile?

[Lucas]

in your technique and strategy you should try to be as efficient as possible. EO

fully, the only argument i have here is that some 'external' practitioners do follow this guideline as well.

there really are 3 'camps' as i see it:

people who make distinction between internal and external. perscribe to one or both worlds in their training.

people who make no distinction and view them as completely interlaced.

people who do not have the concept.

i believe all 3 can produce fighters. its all about training realistically towards your goals.

i dont think anyone will argue against effeciency.

some use effeciency to conserve, personally i use effeciency in conjunction with strength for maximum destruction. that is my personal intent.

the way i see it, my skill will always use up to 100% of all my power. and my power will always rely on my skill to one degree or another.

[David Jamieson]

I can honestly say that I haven't met a decent fighter who wasn't relaxed.

I don't think people waste energy because they don't study so called internal arts. I think the "internal" arts are so cryptic that simple truths are buried under huge piles of horseshit.

The very idea that soft practice alone without strength, stamina and conditioning training will be enough to make you a fighter has been literally dashed, destroyed, chewed up, shat out, fed to a cur, spit out, ground up, thrown under a moving bus and turned to dust after a time in the gutter where it rotted and eventually dried out.

Seriously, this is not 1985 anymore. I think people are more aware than ever as to what's what and where it belongs in the grand scheme of things. "Internal" usually means healthful practice to keep the joints loose and the spirit high.

It is a very long slow and silly road to try to make a fighter out of yourself with "internal" practice alone.

Now, go hit the bag and lift some weights and make yourself as tired as a dog that swam across the ocean. THEN do a form.