Skill vs. Strength/speed

[YouKnowWho]

you should try to be as efficient as possible.

There is a difference between offense and defense. If you want to

- kill someone by a punch, your 200 lb force (not efficient) or 100 lb force (efficient) may make difference whether your opponent will be sent to grave yard or hospital.
- deflect a punch, your 100 lb force (not efficient) or 4 oz force (efficient) may make no difference.

Many IMA guys try to avoid talking about "finish moves" and only talk about "defense moves" such as yield, follow, sticky, sink, Sung, ... That sometime cause a lot of misleading.

A simple question to ask may be, "How to use yout internal skill to kill?"

[MightyB]

A simple question to ask may be, "How to use yout internal skill to kill?"

Maybe because my base TCMA art was supposably Shaolin in origin yet was promoted and passed on by a daoist monk that I have my view that there is no difference between internal and external... because mantis is both.

Anyway- my Sifu always says - use yao (soft) to deflect and control the opponent's gong (hard) technique, but you use your own gong technique to kill.

[MightyB]

Sounds very efficient....



Unless you've touched hands with someone that has high internal skill you won't know what the difference is. So unfortunately I can't really explain it to you.

But just to give you an idea, I'm 6' 7" 260 lbs (yeah, not kidding) and I have pushed hands with someone that's twice my age, probably 100 lbs lighter and has toothpicks for arms but that could throw me across the room. It's not because they're stronger, but because they have a higher level of skill.

EO

Same in Judo. You won't "feel" a master until you arse hits the ground. It's the wrestling with the empty jacket concept. Now is that high level skill "internal" or "external" or is there even a difference?

[Eric Olson]

There is a difference between offense and defense. If you want to

- kill someone by a punch, your 200 lb force (not efficient) or 100 lb force (efficient) may make difference whether your opponent will be sent to grave yard or hospital.

"
How often does anyone encounter a "one hit, one kill" situation? Mostly there's a lot of fighting before someone lands a knock out punch.

Secondly, if someone attacks you with zero force how can you use their force against them? And why would you, there's nothing to avoid?

- deflect a punch, your 100 lb force (not efficient) or 4 oz force (efficient) may make no difference.

????

Many IMA guys try to avoid talking about "finish moves" and only talk about "defense moves" such as yield, follow, sticky, sink, Sung, ... That sometime cause a lot of misleading.

A simple question to ask may be, "How to use yout internal skill to kill?"

You did Taiji. You never learned Kao (bump), Cai (rend), Lie (split), Zhou (elbow)? But those techniques don't work half as well until you've neutralized the opponent.

EO

[Eric Olson]

Same in Judo. You won't "feel" a master until you arse hits the ground. It's the wrestling with the empty jacket concept. Now is that high level skill "internal" or "external" or is there even a difference?

Sounds pretty much the same. But I think it's a mistake to think that all roads, from all martial arts lead there...they don't.

And my original point, was that if a judoka with that level of skill met another judoka with a similar level of skill, it may come down to strength and/or endurance...so you can't neglect those attributes...but train to use skill, not rely on your strength.

EO

[bawang]

u train a style that flails arms and haymakers and talk about skill.

[YouKnowWho]

You did Taiji. You never learned Kao (bump), Cai (rend), Lie (split), Zhou (elbow)? But those techniques don't work half as well until you've neutralized the opponent.

The "neutralization" is the step before "finish" and not "finish" itself. The Taiji system mix the striking and throwing concept. Most of the time, it cause a lot of confusion (Is a "push" throw or a strike?).

In the throwing art, all you need is to push your opponent's center to be outside of his base, you can then let the gravity and hard ground to finish your task.

In the striking art, a punch to the head will have to depend on your own force. Even your opponent may run into your punch but you still need to have good body structure and body alignment behind your punch.

I can understand that Taiji guys don't like to talk about a "low level" punch to the head (XingYi guys or Bagua guys won't mind this at all). That kind of mindset can only pull the Taiji system away from the combat reality.

The day that we can see all Taiji masters demo their skill by using one punch to knock their opponent down, the day that Taiji will regain it's reputation. Until then the Taiji system is far away from the combat reality.

[David Jamieson]

*snip*
And my original point, was that if a judoka with that level of skill met another judoka with a similar level of skill, it may come down to strength and/or endurance...so you can't neglect those attributes...but train to use skill, not rely on your strength.

EO

This statement is a big ball of contradiction.

which is it?

train to use skill?

dude, that reads like some empty platitude. IMA-ists really need to simply put up or shut up.

put up and declare you won using "x" "internal" style. BOOM argument over.

It doesn't seem odd that the most contentious debates about martial arts come from IMA-ists who for the most part have not actually been in fights.

[MightyB]

And my original point, was that if a judoka with that level of skill met another judoka with a similar level of skill, it may come down to strength and/or endurance...so you can't neglect those attributes...but train to use skill, not rely on your strength.

EO

There was an original point??? jk

No seriously, we have different points of view is all. It's a decent topic for discussion and it's certainly generated a lot of posts.

My thought is that if you had a tai chi master with that level of skill meet another TC Master with a similar level of skill, it may come down to strength and/or endurance...so you can't neglect those attributes...but train to use skill, not rely on your strength.

See how it's a circular argument? What it all comes down to is enjoying the training you participate in so that you'll be motivated to practice it for the rest of your life. That's the real secret to kung fu whether it's "internal" or "external".

[KC Elbows]

I'm not sure there's an overall style of kung fu that can point at other styles of kungfu's practitioners as deficient based on samples of inneffective people in the style.

Unless you do liu he ba fa, then no one is gonna reveal they aren't really certain what the crap you do.

[David Jamieson]

I'm not sure there's an overall style of kung fu that can point at other styles of kungfu's practitioners as deficient based on samples of inneffective people in the style.

Unless you do liu he ba fa, then no one is gonna reveal they aren't really certain what the crap you do.

I see what you did there....

[KC Elbows]

I see what you did there....

Clearly, it was liu he ba fa.

[lance]

As someone who has practiced external and internal martial arts I think internal is the superior path. Why?

Because internal arts are not dependent on strength(or speed really). They are a pure expression of skill. As you age (and everyone does, including you 20-somethings!) you naturally lose strength and you would be at a disadvantage compared to the young and strong.

That being said...what do you do when you encounters someone that is more skilled than you are? Curl up in a ball and die? Get the crap beat out of you?

No, that's why it's still important to build up strength and stamina as a fail safe. If you want to be a well-rounded fighter than you need to be in decent shape if you meet an opponent that has more skill. Ideally every fight would be ended with one punch, one kill. Anyone that's put on gloves and gone a few rounds knows this is nothing more than an ideal.

But on the external side...why not try to be more efficient? Why build big muscles that slow you down and gas you out? Why not try to be as efficient in your movement so that you don't have to? Relying on skill first, strength and speed second.

That's where I'm at in my training. Where are you?

EO

Hello , I would build my strength up by practicing tai chi since it ' ll improve your
internal power . Or chi - kung whichever way possible . Weight training is good too , to build up the physical part of you , yes , building big muscles can slower you , but try and practicing on punching with speed and see what happens because we are all different from eachother .

But I would rather practice on building my internal power through tai chi or chi kung training .


Lance

[Ray Pina]

But on the external side...why not try to be more efficient? Why build big muscles that slow you down and gas you out? Why not try to be as efficient in your movement so that you don't have to? Relying on skill first, strength and speed second.

That's where I'm at in my training. Where are you?
EO

Its funny how "internalist" paint "externalists" as brainless brutes, hunched over and dragging their big, hair knuckles across the floor.

Western boxers are "external", so are Thai boxers and the karate style I studied for about 12 years. All of them are extremely efficient. You'll find schools of thought in each style that says you should or shouldn't supplement your training with weights.

Guys who train for real, regardless if they lift or not, will have telling bodies: thick necks, strong shoulders and chests. Broad backs. All martial artists will have that.


All martial artist are the same at a certain point, at a certain age. They have developed their personal game plan/style.... have played with plenty of guys faster than them, or bigger, or heavier or longer. They've put in the time to find the solutions. Its never about being faster or stronger for the experienced, mature stylist.

[YouKnowWho]

But on the external side...why not try to be more efficient? Why build big muscles that slow you down and gas you out? Why not try to be as efficient in your movement so that you don't have to? Relying on skill first, strength and speed second.

When you train this weight pulley drill, you will not develop big muscles that slow you down and gas you out, but make your skill more "efficient".

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/9...ghtpulley4.jpg