Skill vs. Strength/speed

[Eric Olson]

BJJ is an "internal" art. It's more about leverage, relaxation, position, and balance than strength and power. But, if you aren't in shape, you're still going to lose.

Yeah, that's probably true. Or at least in the development of the art, it's headed in that direction minus the mystical woo-woo stuff.

EO

[Eric Olson]

Lol on the one hand we have an national level competitor in both BJJ and submission grappling who has also fought MMA saying that gasp both physical abilities and skill are needed in fighting and competition

On the other we have someone spouting the usual internals don’t need strength to make them work and thus are far superior line, but cant show us any proof of this working
I wonder who we should believe (and I wouldn’t blame Merry at all if he doesn’t post again on this thread)

Here’s an idea post a clip of YOU in action in a fight that is full contact OR a grappling match in a major competition which lasts a full round where you are using your superior internal arts to not waste energy and beat your opponent…………..

And yes this is the same tired old argument that I would like to see what you talk about in action before I believe you………………..because I can see what merry and others are talking about in action all the time, where as for some unknown reason you cant provide any proof at all to back up what you are talking about

Don't believe what I'm saying....what do I care?

In fact, I think you should do the opposite, spend all your time strength training, get as strong as you can and in any competition try to out "strength "your opponent.

Maybe it will work for you?

EO

[Eric Olson]

I really think you need to get out more and experience more, a lot more.

Sage advice...actually for everyone on this forum

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sage advice...actually for everyone on this forum

EO

I am serious bro, when was the last time you experienced another MA at a high level?

[wenshu]

Don't believe what I'm saying....what do I care?

In fact, I think you should do the opposite, spend all your time strength training, get as strong as you can and in any competition try to out "strength "your opponent.

Maybe it will work for you?

EO

No one is arguing that maximal strength is a panacea.

The only ones who really seem to argue for unilateral dominance of one specific, narrowly defined aspect of martial arts training are the "internalist" ax grinders.

Its not internal vs external, thats just marketing.

Their is a distinction between hardness and softness. All legitimate martial arts contain a relative balance of the two.

Favor one at your peril.

I shall never tire of emphasizing the following; "Internal" is just an excuse for people who want to be a bada$$ without the sweat, DOMS, bruises and pulled muscles.

[Frost]

Don't believe what I'm saying....what do I care?

In fact, I think you should do the opposite, spend all your time strength training, get as strong as you can and in any competition try to out "strength "your opponent.

Maybe it will work for you?

EO

Oh I don’t believe what you are saying….and the sad thing is you don’t have any rove other thanyour personal beliefs because if you did you would be busy posting clips to prove me wrong

And your response is typical of someone who cant argue coherently you throw your dummy out of your pram and say you don’t care, but not before going to the extreme point of view where to try to prove your point……….where did anyone say just use your strength, merry said both physical and technical skill are needed and I agreed, so did anyone who has actually competed with skilled opponents

The fact you cant see this speaks volumes about your level of skill and training

[Eric Olson]

Oh I don’t believe what you are saying….and the sad thing is you don’t have any rove other thanyour personal beliefs because if you did you would be busy posting clips to prove me wrong

And your response is typical of someone who cant argue coherently you throw your dummy out of your pram and say you don’t care, but not before going to the extreme point of view where to try to prove your point……….where did anyone say just use your strength, merry said both physical and technical skill are needed and I agreed, so did anyone who has actually competed with skilled opponents

The fact you cant see this speaks volumes about your level of skill and training

Blah, blah, blah...you just don't like that I tried to pigeon-hole your argument...which is exactly what you are trying to do to me.

This is a "discussion" forum, we discuss things here. Choose to believe (or read) what I write or not. I really could give a **** or not.

If you want to engage in an actual discussion minus the personal attacks and barbs I'm happy to oblige.

EO

[Eric Olson]

No one is arguing that maximal strength is a panacea.

No one is arguing that internal is a panacea either. Funny how no one likes to be pigeon-holed but they like to do it to others.

The only ones who really seem to argue for unilateral dominance of one specific, narrowly defined aspect of martial arts training are the "internalist" ax grinders.

Which ain't me....

Its not internal vs external, thats just marketing.

Their is a distinction between hardness and softness. All legitimate martial arts contain a relative balance of the two.

Favor one at your peril.

That's your opinion. Internal isn't really "soft" like in external styles. It's neither hard, nor soft....it's sung. I think that's where people get confused and say "hey, look, we have soft too. We're internal."

I shall never tire of emphasizing the following; "Internal" is just an excuse for people who want to be a bada$$ without the sweat, DOMS, bruises and pulled muscles.

Practicing internal arts still means you have to practice I think it's people who confuse internal practice with not practicing that have the problem.

EO

[wenshu]

That's your opinion. Internal isn't really "soft" like in external styles. It's neither hard, nor soft....it's sung.

I think you mean:
松
[sōng]
3. verb [放开] relax
他松开了抓着绳子的手。
He relaxed his grip on the rope.
4. verb [鞋带、腰带] loosen
5. adjective loose
他的腰带有点松。
His belt is a bit loose.
你管学生不能太松了。
You shouldn't be too soft on the students.

Nearly synonomous with
柔
[róu]
1. adjective [软] soft
2. adjective [柔和] gentle

[Frost]

Blah, blah, blah...you just don't like that I tried to pigeon-hole your argument...which is exactly what you are trying to do to me.

This is a "discussion" forum, we discuss things here. Choose to believe (or read) what I write or not. I really could give a **** or not.

If you want to engage in an actual discussion minus the personal attacks and barbs I'm happy to oblige.

EO

how can one discuss anything with someone whose position seems to be internal is better unique etc but cant provide any substantial evidence to back it up, its based on faith NOT evidence and you cant argue with blind faith

[Eric Olson]

how can one discuss anything with someone whose position seems to be internal is better unique etc but cant provide any substantial evidence to back it up, its based on faith NOT evidence and you cant argue with blind faith

Oh boy... I don't suppose you are a follower of Ayn Rand too.

Look, if you want to drill down into "evidence" then we'd probably have to get all scientific about it. And I don't think either of us has time to do that. YouTube clips really prove nothing because anyone can cherry pick the clips to prove their point.

All we can really talk about here is our experience and our interpretation of it. Now, I happened to study under a very "high level" (I use that term loosely) Taiji master and he could school me despite being a fraction of my weight using very little effort.

Could I have popped in the face if we really fought? Probably, I don't think he'd done a lot of fighting. But once you're in the clinch with him, game over because he can feel where you're going and you can't figure out how he's manipulating your force.

How many high-level Taiji masters have you pushed with?

EO

[Frost]

Oh boy... I don't suppose you are a follower of Ayn Rand too.

Look, if you want to drill down into "evidence" then we'd probably have to get all scientific about it. And I don't think either of us has time to do that. YouTube clips really prove nothing because anyone can cherry pick the clips to prove their point.

All we can really talk about here is our experience and our interpretation of it. Now, I happened to study under a very "high level" (I use that term loosely) Taiji master and he could school me despite being a fraction of my weight using very little effort.

Could I have popped in the face if we really fought? Probably, I don't think he'd done a lot of fighting. But once you're in the clinch with him, game over because he can feel where you're going and you can't figure out how he's manipulating your force.

How many high-level Taiji masters have you pushed with?

EO

oh i dont know i did tai chi for about 7 years with a few guys who had studied it for over 2 decades they were pretty good but not well known masters, but hey it gives me a reference point right

Now the question is how much grappling have you done with top level guys, how many competitions have you done so you have a frame of reference when you talk about not needing to use strength in tat setting....how much extenral training have you done so you can actually compare the two and decide which is superior

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that all Taiji people should visit with William CC Chen, just once.

[JamesC]

Oh boy... I don't suppose you are a follower of Ayn Rand too.

Look, if you want to drill down into "evidence" then we'd probably have to get all scientific about it. And I don't think either of us has time to do that. YouTube clips really prove nothing because anyone can cherry pick the clips to prove their point.

All we can really talk about here is our experience and our interpretation of it. Now, I happened to study under a very "high level" (I use that term loosely) Taiji master and he could school me despite being a fraction of my weight using very little effort.

Could I have popped in the face if we really fought? Probably, I don't think he'd done a lot of fighting. But once you're in the clinch with him, game over because he can feel where you're going and you can't figure out how he's manipulating your force.

So you're saying that he has no fighting experience, but he's awesome at push hands?

I'm not intending to insult here, btw. Your last paragraph just makes no sense.

If you can simply punch someone in the face, why wouldn't you if you were trying to hurt them? I suppose TC practitioners just think everyone is gonna root themselves and get in position for the shoving match?

Seriously, if you want to learn to fight you go to someone who has done a lot of it. You don't go to someone who has a bunch of theories on how it might be, or how it was that one time a soccer dad got in his face.

That's like saying you know how to drive because you play a lot of Gran Turismo.

[MightyB]

I honestly would love to try to uproot a tai chi guy. I've always wanted to try. Not by brutishly pushing tai chi demo style, but with the skills I've learned as a thrower. I've never had the chance, but I'd love the opportunity. I'm saying any throwing combination, sweeps, skilled sacrifices... the whole 9 yards minus striking just to test this "root" concept. Do it in a timed scenario... say something like "knock this guy down in 30 seconds or less" type of thing. And I wouldn't be doing it to be an A-hole. I'd be willing to do it in private (no cameras - and no telling the results if I succeeded). I would however be the biggest supporter of Tai Chi and I'd be super vocal in my support if I honestly gave it my all and tried to throw a guy and absolutely couldn't.

Seriously - I'm curious in a curious and friendly way but I want absolute proof of concept. I am definitely not a my style is better and I'm a tough guy type of person.

I just want to know if there's something real in root training.