Filipino Arts/Silat

[Kong Jianshen]

Anyone have extensive training in Filipino and Indonesian unarmed arts? I heard they are pretty practical. If anyone has trained in these and has any information to an outsider it would be appreciated. Kuntaw? Unarmed filipino art sounds interesting. Kali has the best knifefighting I have seen yet .

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

[GinSueDog]

It depends on the style you are referring to, just like Kung Fu has hundreds of styles, so does Kali, Silat, etc.-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

[Knifefighter]

I believe the Filipino and Indonesian arts are the way to go for stick and knife training. I know people will disagree with me on this one (and at one time I would have disagreed also), but I believe their empty-hand applications don’t stack up too well against some other empty-handed arts.

[Kong Jianshen]

GinSueDog- Always good to hear you post. I am reffering to Sikaran, Kuntaw, Filipino Dirty Boxing, Dumog, anything filipino and unarmed I can't recall any silat style names because they might be a little exotic for my western mind :)

Knifefighter- "I believe their empty-hand applications don’t stack up too well against some other empty-handed arts."

Great point. I will give that some thought. Maybe only cause thier knifefighting rocks, who is to say they're empty hands do? Maybe i'll live those arts for weapon training.

Although, I have heard some stuff about certain Silat grappling technqiues. They use more gouging, clawing, and nasty techniques which can be equalizers when facing against a better grappler.

I also heard the filipino styles emphasize destructions, and use of elbows which I like. Anyone training for street effiency, cannot overlook elbows. But, Thai Boxing also has elbows down pretty good.

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

[GinSueDog]

As Guru Dan Inosanto put it at a seminar I went to last year, almost everyone in the country side in the Philippines is armed with at least a machete. So I would figure there knife/stick work would have to be better then there empty hand. Just remember to take it with a little salt, not every Kali or Silat instructor trains it like the Dog Brothers do. As for the grappling in Kali or Silat, dirty tricks are nice but against a good grappler you may not get the chance to even use them, I know that the Kail that is incorporated in PFS was pretty helpful is making me more aware of my positioning and what dirty tricks could be used on me from those positions, if anything it helped my grappling street wise, but I wouldn't rely on dirty tricks.-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

[This message was edited by GinSueDog on 12-21-00 at 04:44 PM.]

[Kyoshu]

I am reffering to Sikaran, Kuntaw, Filipino Dirty Boxing, Dumog, anything filipino and unarmed I can't recall any silat style names because they might be a little exotic for my western mind

- They are all quite different. Sikaran is very similar Tae Kwon Do, from what I have seen from the Black Kimono Group in Cebu. Not to sure what you mean by Filipino Dirty Boxing. The two types of Kuntaw that I have seen are quite different. One was very similar to Okinwan Goju Ryu and the other was Tat Kun Tao, which is very much like Doce Pares. I have seen some Dumog, but have found Judo to be more effective. I train in Sikadsu (short for Sikad Suntok) which is a mongrel of Arnis, Judo, Karate & Muay Thai, but we tend to get most of our striking from Muay Thai and Karate as opposed to Arnis.

Kyoshu

[Kong Jianshen]

I don't think anyone trains it like the dog brothers :)

Man those guys are really good. Talk about training with realism in mind. I belive thier training makes someone who can actually fight.

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

[iamaloser]

Unlike most martial arts, many Filipino martial arts styles start the beginner learning weapons first, in many cases, the single and double sticks. Don't get the wrong impression because since the empty hand is secondary, the empty-hand techniques are more vicious and less merciful than say tai chi or aikido.

Filipino martial arts was created by suppressed Filipinos during the occupation of the Philippines by the Spaniards centuries ago so Filipino martial arts evolved differently than Chinese, Japanese, and Korean where those arts influenced each other. Therefore, the training methods and philosophies of combat may seem alien to students of the other styles.

[JerryLove]

Knife, count me in the group that likes Indo empty hand work. Of course, it varies by style.

I am not familier with the styles you are talking about, though I have various levels of exposure to the William Reeders, "Uncle" Willem DeThaures, and Chiku Madgid lines of Silat (Serak, Tjimande, Harimau, Madi, Seti-Hati, Baji, Tjikulung, some Pukilans, etc.) and would be happy to discuss any of those.

[Taomonkey]

Jerry,
If you dont mind me asking, what was your exposure to Reeders line Kun Tao.

As for those of you who believe that many FMArtist are weak in teh empty hand side, please continue to think that way. It's called underestimation, you make a blanket statement about such a varied collection of Martial Arts (Fhilippino), where much has yet to be seen by most Americans. I know there are those here who believe its junk if I say what I can do with my stick or knife, I can do with my hand. But believe me when I say that the traditional weapons trainings of the PI, produce a quite different style of empty hand fighting. While some movements may be similiar to what we do with our weapons, the hands change teh range and thus how you fight must also be changed. My weapon is just an extension of my hand.

[JerryLove]

Tao - reasonably limited. My instructor has spent some quality time with Guy Savelli, and I have been through a few of his seminars. I also spent some time with Sifu Lenny (never did ask him his last name) who taught Reeder's liniage Kuntao in Ft.Meyers,FL until his death.

BTW, the clip is kinda suckie but here is a 10sec clip of our phase 1 empty-hand work. Clip

[This message was edited by Jerry Love on 12-24-00 at 05:55 PM.]

[Knifefighter]

I used to believe that the "weapons are just an extension of the hands". I don’t any more. My opinion is that, while there is a bit of transfer from one area to another, you fight differently with a knife, stick, rapier, staff, spear, broadsword, katana, empty hands, etc. I believe that you need specific training for a specific type of weapon (or lack thereof) and that empty hands fighting is much different than with a weapon. While I am a big believer in the Filipino arts for sticks and knives, I think there are other arts much better for empty-handed fighting.

[JerryLove]

I agree. Unless you can lacerate with your hands, they are not knives. And knives are not swords. I think you can create some crossover (our emptyhand and knife fighting are very similar to one another. Swordfighting would not be) but it is wrong to believe that there isn't a difference between armmed and unarmed.

I would point out that IMA and FMA are not the same and with FMA and IMA are *many* arts that are also not the same. I think that the empty-hand work in silat is excellent, espically when looking at empty against a knife.

[Taomonkey]

Knife,
Never said there was no difference. What I was trying to relay is that through my FMA training that my weapon work is as comftorable and as fluid as my empty hands. One instinctively knows where your hand is at all times, I do not have to think about reaching for the glass, I only reach for it. It is this that is the goal of our weapons training. As for how we teach empty hand yes it varies from how we teach weapons, since the novice usually has not made the leap to extension. What you seem to be relaying is begining movement, and I am not sure if you have had any advanced training. I dont mean any insult or offense but I hear what I hear. I see very little difference in movements of advanced CMA or IMA from the more advanced movements of Mano Mano. The traditional movements that I speak of seem to be missing from the more modernised ecletic groups of FMA out there. Where several have used Lee's philosophy and discarded what they thaught as useless, yet those "useless" things would have eventually led to some understanding of the more advanced movement, but such is the curse of us Americans I guess, we want our moneys worth, we want it all up front and have little time for traditional training, and thus many of us never see what the art can bring.
Jerry,
I hope I dont ofend you as well, but I dont call what Sevelli is teaching Reeders line Kun Tao. Let me say that I have never met the man, and only can forge my beliefs from what I have seen of his video and printed material. He openly states that his kun tao and his "mental" techniques were learned after his departure from GM Reeders, and even went on to state that "it was this ability that Master Reeders acknowledge and feared in a challenge match." Truth being that if there had ever been such a match Sevelli would not be here to make such statements. If you have connections in Florida and seek true Reeders line Kun Tao, it would do you well to seek out Master Carl Spitoli, I think he's in Florida. I have had the privilege of seeing several masters who trained under GM Reeders, including Spitoli, Joe Salamoni, and GM Arthur Sikes (Master Reeders right hand student), and their movement makes Sevelli look like a beginer.
As I said I mean no disrespect to either you or Knifefighter, I have always enjoyed your post and value both of your opinions. This is just my thoughts, weigh it how you want.

[Knifefighter]

TaoMonkey:
Maybe you are right and my training in FMA was not advanced enough to see the effective empty-handed applications. Can you give some specific examples of how the advanced weapons movements of which you speak are also applied unarmed?
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