Practicing techniques "too deadly for the ring"

[Eric Olson]

In Brazil for quite a long time they really were "no rules" / vale tudo... there is plenty of kung fu in Brazil, but no one stepped into the ring to dim mak any of those guys

Sounds like when it started it was a fairly localized phenomena:

"From 1960 onwards, vale tudo would remain an underground sub-culture, with most of the fights taking place in martial arts dojos or small gymnasiums.[citation needed] The vale tudo sub-culture was mainly based in Rio de Janeiro, but many fights also took place in the northern region, as well as the southern region and the Bahia state, where Capoeira is prevalent. The scene in Rio de Janeiro focused mainly on the intense rivalry between Brazilian jiu-jitsu and Luta Livre, whereas fights in the other regions featured more diverse martial arts competing in the events.[citation needed]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_tudo

[Eric Olson]

Just so we know what we're talking about, here are MMA rules:

The following are fouls, as set out by the Nevada State Athletic Commission:[4]

* Butting with the head
* Eye gouging of any kind
* Biting
* Hair pulling
* Fish hooking
* Groin attacks of any kind
* Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. (see Gouging)
* Small joint manipulation
* Striking to the spine or the back of the head (see Rabbit punch)
* Striking downward using the point of the elbow (see Elbow strike)
* Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
* Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh
* Grabbing the clavicle
* Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
* Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent
* Stomping a grounded opponent
* Kicking to the kidney with the heel
* Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. (see Piledriver)
* Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area
* Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent

[wenshu]

Sounds like when it started it was a fairly localized phenomena:

"From 1960 onwards, vale tudo would remain an underground sub-culture, with most of the fights taking place in martial arts dojos or small gymnasiums.[citation needed] The vale tudo sub-culture was mainly based in Rio de Janeiro, but many fights also took place in the northern region, as well as the southern region and the Bahia state, where Capoeira is prevalent. The scene in Rio de Janeiro focused mainly on the intense rivalry between Brazilian jiu-jitsu and Luta Livre, whereas fights in the other regions featured more diverse martial arts competing in the events.[citation needed]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_tudo

Not only are you sourcing from Wikipedia, even wiki thinks it needs more sources.[citation needed]

[Eric Olson]

Not only are you sourcing from Wikipedia, even wiki thinks it needs more sources.[citation needed]

Ooh, you got me. Here all this time I though Wikipedia was authoritative.

Look, wikipedia isn't the best source, but it's a good place to start.

EO

[TenTigers]

How to train bitting?

beginner level - get a raw pig leg and sink your teeth all he way to the bone.

ok, that is a health risk. Undercooked pork can give you trichinosis (sp?)

intemediate level - try to bite a live snake's head off, or a life dog's leg off.

advantage stage - go to the zoo and try your skill against a life lion or tiger.

Mas Oyama killed bulls, or yaks, or some freakin cow-thing.
William "Thunderbolt" Chow killed a horse with a single punch.
So did Ku Yu Cheong.
I will do that.
I will probably start out with something more manageable, like a bunny,
then work my way up to a cat, or toy dogs like a poodle or a bichon frise.

[David Jamieson]

i dim mak everything

and that's why your balls are withered and now you need the special jow AND the old man who applies it for you.

bwahahahaha.

you have to learn the ways of the soft man.

[Lucas]

i think you should be able to kick downed opponent. why not?

[Lucas]

and that's why your balls are withered and now you need the special jow AND the old man who applies it for you.

bwahahahaha.

you have to learn the ways of the soft man.

too bad i dim mak that old man for trying to touch my balls

[TenTigers]

Just so we know what we're talking about, here are MMA rules:

The following are fouls, as set out by the Nevada State Athletic Commission:[4]

* Butting with the head
* Eye gouging of any kind
* Biting
* Hair pulling
* Fish hooking
* Groin attacks of any kind
* Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. (see Gouging)
* Small joint manipulation
* Striking to the spine or the back of the head (see Rabbit punch)
* Striking downward using the point of the elbow (see Elbow strike)
* Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
* Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh
* Grabbing the clavicle
* Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
* Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent
* Stomping a grounded opponent
* Kicking to the kidney with the heel
* Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. (see Piledriver)
* Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area
* Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent

I thought fish hooking was when she gags and it comes out her nose...
yeah, that should definately be illgal in MMA.

[Eric Olson]

I thought fish hooking was when she gags and it comes out her nose...
yeah, that should definately be illgal in MMA.

Gene, can we have NSFW jokes and pictures only section for the forum? I'm guessing huge traffic on that one.

EO

[SoCo KungFu]

I thought fish hooking was when she gags and it comes out her nose...
yeah, that should definately be illgal in MMA.

No that's the angry dragon

[Frost]

Just so we know what we're talking about, here are MMA rules:

The following are fouls, as set out by the Nevada State Athletic Commission:[4]

* Butting with the head
* Eye gouging of any kind
* Biting
* Hair pulling
* Fish hooking
* Groin attacks of any kind
* Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. (see Gouging)
* Small joint manipulation
* Striking to the spine or the back of the head (see Rabbit punch)
* Striking downward using the point of the elbow (see Elbow strike)
* Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
* Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh
* Grabbing the clavicle
* Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
* Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent
* Stomping a grounded opponent
* Kicking to the kidney with the heel
* Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. (see Piledriver)
* Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area
* Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent

early ufc and japanese open rules: no throat shots, no fish hooking, everything else was legal...where were al the deadly guys cleaning up there?

at the risk of sounding like matt thornton its all about the delivery system, so one guys approach is to practise safe versions of the shots in live sparring against a moving target and if you want to then simulate the deadly every now and then, put eye protectors on and allow eye shots, clinch and allow headbutts or throat shots etc another guy practises against a BOB eye poking etc, hitting concrete with his knife hand etc

Which of those when the cr*p hits the fan do you think will be able to use the deadly on a moving target when the prssures on......

[Syn7]

In sport, you fight with rules. In combat, you want to finish your opponent ASAP. The training are different. In sport, you may just want to win. In combat, you want to hurt your opponent.

You can train certain moves on throwing dummy or special designed equipments. You will need to develop some special skills to deal with "unfriendly challengers". There is nothing better than to run your fingers across your opponent's eyes first and then beat him up after that (not for sport). The question is how do you train "run your fingers across your opponent's eyes" if no training partner will let you do that? A telephone book will be a good training tool for that. You can see how many pages that your fingers can dig into a phone book to see the progress of your skill development.

and how often to you see an mma, boxing, bjj, wrestling, jodu, whatever match where the guy doesnt want to finish you quickly??? even in most of those c0ck style point matches, a good kick to the face is money...

[Frost]

and how often to you see an mma, boxing, bjj, wrestling, jodu, whatever match where the guy doesnt want to finish you quickly??? even in most of those c0ck style point matches, a good kick to the face is money...

Good point everyone wants to finish their opponent quickly and hurt them some people think spors guys don’t want to do this, its just not that easy to do against a determined opponent, I have seen people finish fights with broken hands, busted ribs,hell jacare finished a grappling match with a busted arm, I have seen people spiked on their heads (I’ve had it done to me) and still fight on, heck a friend of mine dislocated his knee in his second MMA fight and STILL won, sometimes adrenaline can make the deadly NOT that dangerous which can be a shock to guys who rely on it………….

As for the fingers across the eyes helping to finish a fight….well in 95 that Japanese fighter had his eye gauged out in the HNB event, didn’t stop him winning the fight did it, some times it works sometimes it doesn’t, best not to reply on it but on sound basics that always work

one of my MMA coaches is also one of the few people certified to teach Geoff Thompson’s fence system, every now and then he throws in the deadly, Thai plum (sorry violent, double neck tie) to fingers in the eyes and ramming the opponents head into a wall, striking a turtled opponent and if his heel on his back leg is raised stamp on it to beak his foot….etc but his view is if you cant get the guy in the position in the first place (ie dominate with your delivery system) you cant do this stuff

Now my question is why bother with this stuff and just how important is it to you? Seriously when was the last time anyone had to blind someone in self-defence, hit them in the throat or try to kill them?

When was the last time you actually were in a real fight, not a drunk brawl but a real dangerous fight? If the answer is last week I can understand you putting a big emphasis on this stuff (although I would be looking for weapon work first lol) but if the answer is 6 months ago? 2 years ago, 5, why then?

Me its been years (over a decade) so I train for fun and fitness, I cant see the point of spending hours a week on deadly stuff I will never use, I still condition my PE fist, I still practise short range power because I enjoy it, but realistically I wont be using it to kill anyone anytime soon, and if I find myself in a bad situation ill be looking for a weapon before I try to hit there eyes, not withstanding with the laws the way there are in the UK if I did any of that stuff on an opponent I would probably be banged up

[RenDaHai]

There are a lot of good points here,

There are off course variations on many moves which make them far more effective, but too damaging to practice.

So in a fight is it better to use an untested 'super' move, or a well tested normal move? As in should you go for the really nasty move which you have never really done before or the standard smack to the face you've done alot?


Some times we are so conditioned to fighting within the rules that even if you take them away we still fight this way. Some illegal moves are very powerful and should not be overlooked. Like kicking someone in the nuts will trump the standard turning kick to the thigh. Grabbing someone's hair gives you more control over them than pretty much grabbing anywhere else (and is easier to grab). The head butt is one of the greatest moves of all time....

So my question is Not just how do we train these moves but How do we program ourselves to 'think' of doing these moves in combat when we are so used to not using them in sparring?