New Philipp Bayer clip

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axeKt8Gnjeo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjtLGjHMTKk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDrVZJ0pHPA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcLnbARwjwA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72pkj1xnAlo

Here's one of deflecting a strong incoming force
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_3Io2Pk-DM

And here's one of the classic WSL outside attack approach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4qr3mhlIVQ

It's good that you have at least 'shared' your own training clips here, so don't listen to the bashers who have still to share anything of their own other than words (which is also great, but y'all know what I'm saying!)

yes it will take seconds to explain with hands on, clips cant do it.

I totally disagree Kev! You just don't 'want' to share

If you can talk, train, or teach in a class there is nothing you can't explain through a video clip. I agree you still need to 'feel' it all, but I have not even see you train/teach what you rap about on here through a video yet. Totally dissappointing imho. Living through others examples will only last so long...

[Hendrik]

thanks guys,

The issue I see here is we often jump into conclusion before verify what we think.


For me, based on 6dfv space analysis, WSL and Fong method are two different ways.

WSL solution both passed and cut in like the ice breaking ship into the ice. which make it faster and sharp.

Some will see it some will not.

It is very obvious WSL has a very different momentum dynamic structure cultivated. Those signatures are like the face of a person. it tells who one is and cannot be hide.

In my teenage time, the sifus dont like others to take pictures and film one because they dont want these signatures being seen. others will know what is pro and con once seen. for there are plenty of high hand in TCMA world which knows.

For me, the body movement of an individual carry the signature of how one condition one's body and be able to read that signature know the characteristics.


In the TCMA we all love to safe face. but in the reality of momentum, there is no face there, it is either the ship is going to cut into the ice or the ship become the titanic. WCner needs to come to this level of mind set instead of keep arguing I have it too.... because the ICE doesnt care you have it or not. the bottom line is can one cut in?


I am not from WSL lineage, but when we see a great art we need to acknowlege it.

[horserider]

Hendrick my friend I agree with you but think there is more to it.

You are right about body no question there. So no reason to compare or argue about different versions of Ip Man teachings.. Also since I do not practice Ip man wing chun I can not talk about it to specific degree.

Since body tells all you are right about no photo in old days. many funny stories about picture taking .

To point. It is not either or. All things have 2 sides Yin /Yang. To be fighter one must be adaptable so can not just focus on one thing must understand other side of things as well.

Cutting ice is good but sometimes ice to thick even for ice breaker so ice breaker must find another way.

Perhaps some videos are trying to show other way?

[Vajramusti]

This is getting a bit tiresome...but will try to correct some mis-impressions-though I don't expect musch "listening" in this noise box of a forum.

1. Hendrik- you missed the points in post after post. No issue of saving face. Just facts.
a.the late WSL was a great wing chun exponent and fighter and I honor him.

2. sitting and watching You Tubes and videos through your own eyes does not mean that you have accurate ideas about what you see.I have been to your place (thanks for your kindness)and you can come to my place and I can show you what I am referring to.

3.Good students of Fong and Fong sifu himself know how to use the ice cutter when needed. One response does not fit all situations. You have to have lots of things in a wing chun arsenal...and not be predictable.

Kevin- I am always focused on the line and squaring and facing.. Going in or deflect while going in... all depends on the details not on dogma.

Pointless chest beating to unilaterally say what you showed a Fong "student". Dont' know who he was...or how long he really studied or how experienced he was. So just repeating your stories
illustrate zilch.

Graham- so you skipped ship to learn from PB. Good for you so what? Why attempt to sell and sell visiting PB. Gets boring-on a chat list.
Matt, in good faith put some up some videos to discuss things. After giving your opinion- why not just let it go.

Kevin and Graham- best to try to elevate the level of discussion on the forum rather than engaging in same old same old put downs. Put downs are a dis-service to your current lineage... and the reputation of the art.

Gotta get some work done.


Joy Chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Hendrick my friend I agree with you but think there is more to it.

You are right about body no question there. So no reason to compare or argue about different versions of Ip Man teachings.. Also since I do not practice Ip man wing chun I can not talk about it to specific degree.

Since body tells all you are right about no photo in old days. many funny stories about picture taking .

To point. It is not either or. All things have 2 sides Yin /Yang. To be fighter one must be adaptable so can not just focus on one thing must understand other side of things as well.

Cutting ice is good but sometimes ice to thick even for ice breaker so ice breaker must find another way.

Perhaps some videos are trying to show other way?

Hi Friend,

you know, a straight talk. evidentally WSL is traveling the path toward people like WXZ of Yee Chuan on his later design solution. Thus, his way will cut into ice sharply compare with most WCK solution which is less effective. It is law of momentum WSL has insight better then lots of WCners. that we have to admit.

There is right way and wrong way to handle momentum, as I point out in the previous post on some one instead of let the momentum passed and cut into it as in WSL method trying to out fast or out momentum without realize it doesnt work.

Yin yang is about balance, however, there is right or wrong of doing things. WSL solution is tested and thus proper in lots of ways compare with most look a like WCK.

I am not from WSL lineage but i study its pro and con because I might have to face it from my opponent. the only way one can handle something is after one can see what it is.

For me, the previous two pages of posts are filled with seeing not what it is but keep going to argue.


Face it WSL solution is having 3 hands instead of two. the attacking arm itself is two hands, thus it is one more hand then usual. and the handling of the momentum make it possible to let the incoming force passed side way and slide into the ice in the same time. it is a beautiful design. and it is closer to the top TCMA such as WXZ's six directional power then usual general Nam Kuen with fighting hand technics via hand technics instead of going directly to solve the momentum issue.



Saying the above, ofcorse there are multi ways to see things and can be valid. My view above is just one view.

However, if one doesnt get down that level of depth but keep arguing this person or that name. that is off mark. because name's title and style doesnt tell how to deal with the 3rd hand of WSL and the momentum of cut in. thus, one cant handle what one doesnt know and doesnt see.

[k gledhill]

It's good that you have at least 'shared' your own training clips here, so don't listen to the bashers who have still to share anything of their own other than words (which is also great, but y'all know what I'm saying!)



I totally disagree Kev! You just don't 'want' to share

If you can talk, train, or teach in a class there is nothing you can't explain through a video clip. I agree you still need to 'feel' it all, but I have not even see you train/teach what you rap about on here through a video yet. Totally dissappointing imho. Living through others examples will only last so long...

If you havent seen it through Philipps clips, your certainly not going to see it in mine...

[Hendrik]

1. Hendrik- you missed the points in post after post. No issue of saving face. Just facts.
a.the late WSL was a great wing chun exponent and fighter and I honor him.

i

Joy,

ok.

Thanks!

[LoneTiger108]

If you havent seen it through Philipps clips, your certainly not going to see it in mine...

Your response is a typical cop-out dude. Let me say it clearly.

I don't want to see Sifu Bayer. I've seen too much of him to be fair. I want to see his students that brag about their inherent WSL skills and put down any and everyone else that doesn't seem to fit their own VT mould.

I want to see you and I hope one day you can be bothered to turn on the video camera and share your insights, like so many others try to do each week.

[fred]

Again, the junior should be taught NOT to go back when under pressure. That is what all of the misunderstood concepts such as "softness", "sensitivity" and "listening" are all about, not to mention the fluid use of angling.

Hi all , have been lurking here a while, and whenever i read stuff about not moving back i can only imagine some people aint doing enough sparring work .
Have to agree with Kevin & graham on this one, it is important to learn how to move back, we do similar drills (another wsl line) . Imo tho in clip Bayer is giving student bit too much fwd pressure since they appear to be beginner, she cant keep her stance as she is moved back so she is not learning as much as she could, she appears to be bouncing straight back due to loosing structure and thus cannot ride bayers pressure to angle back thus getting a good line for counter.

Getting back to first point anyone who thinks they can stand there never loosing ground is foolish and can never have tested there form properly ie)sparring against other non-wc guys . Whats better to try and learn to never move back ,then when you are you are bulldozed your stance falls apart cos you never drills this? or too learn how to maintain some stance as you are moved back?

reguards
fred <B>

[bennyvt]

sounds good fred. what wsl ine are you from

[k gledhill]

Your response is a typical cop-out dude. Let me say it clearly.

I don't want to see Sifu Bayer. I've seen too much of him to be fair. I want to see his students that brag about their inherent WSL skills and put down any and everyone else that doesn't seem to fit their own VT mould.

I want to see you and I hope one day you can be bothered to turn on the video camera and share your insights, like so many others try to do each week.

Ive never been a great video taker, but will try

[Graham H]

It's good that you have at least 'shared' your own training clips here, so don't listen to the bashers who have still to share anything of their own other than words (which is also great, but y'all know what I'm saying!)



I totally disagree Kev! You just don't 'want' to share

If you can talk, train, or teach in a class there is nothing you can't explain through a video clip. I agree you still need to 'feel' it all, but I have not even see you train/teach what you rap about on here through a video yet. Totally dissappointing imho. Living through others examples will only last so long...

....so far off the mark that there is no point in replying.

GH

[Graham H]

Imo tho in clip Bayer is giving student bit too much fwd pressure since they appear to be beginner, she cant keep her stance as she is moved back so she is not learning as much as she could, she appears to be bouncing straight back due to loosing structure and thus cannot ride bayers pressure to angle back thus getting a good line for counter.

More misunderstandings I see!!!! I'm not going to bother going into why this is important for the student but it is!!!! I wish you guys would stop trying to read from video footage because you are all a mile off!!!

GH

[Graham H]

Graham- so you skipped ship to learn from PB. Good for you so what? Why attempt to sell and sell visiting PB. Gets boring-on a chat list.
Matt, in good faith put some up some videos to discuss things. After giving your opinion- why not just let it go.

[QUOTE]

I skipped many ships.........a Fong rowing boat was included!!! I am entitled to give my opinion on video footage just as you are entitled to your opinions.

Kevin and Graham- best to try to elevate the level of discussion on the forum rather than engaging in same old same old put downs. Put downs are a dis-service to your current lineage... and the reputation of the art.

How can I elevate it when 95% is complete nonsense??? Tell me that wise man!!!

GH

[fred]

More misunderstandings I see!!!! I'm not going to bother going into why this is important for the student but it is!!!!

GH

Hi Graham, nothing like loyal students hey I did agree that the drill is important hence my previous post 'we do similar drills'. What I noticed is that bayer is working too far above students level at times in clip, that is why shes bouncing back in uncontrolled fashion. Perhaps if he turned it down slightly she would gain more ,gradually turning it up over time to full on.

reguards
fred <B>