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Thread: New Philipp Bayer clip

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    I can stop from being moved back in chi-sao with a partner who delivers force to prove my positions. IE I use my inward elbow to centerline and shut it down with structure , hips etc... BUT I wouldnt fight like this or waddle around in a basic stance to try and emulate the same effect in a barfight, but thats me
    In our lineage of Wing Chun, the intensity of Chi sao practice increases as the student develops. This ends up in the use fists, palms, elbow, legs, knees and feet, as striking and Chin-na/Kumna tools. This in turn leads to full on sparring that by the way, maintains "sticking" skills from intense chi sao practice together with correct rooting, if not exact stances.

    So, in a real fight one ends up using kung fu and not kickboxing inspired approaches. Incidentally, in Chow Gar, one is meant to immediately "sink" before going into action, if a fight is imminent.

  2. #32
    To avoid misunderstandings, let me give you an example of how I was taught to deal with the same type of attack you see on 0:15. Instead of going back with a pak, I would make a 45 degree step forward the outside of my opponent's left side. My "to be" trapped arm would turn into Tan Sao (or tan/lap combination), while my right fist would target the left side of the opponent's neck.

    Its not a pak sau. Its a man sau and whilst I respect your POV what you have said is typical of WCK'ers that are lost in the Chi Sau bubble. I used to have the same "sensitivity" ideas as you until I was shown the error of my ways. I will also say (again) that you cannot judge Philipps VT without being stood in front of him and I am 100% certain that like the rest of us who have gone you will leave with a different idea of Ving Tsun.

    Your sensitivity and listening abilities are nonsense!!!

    GH

  3. #33
    [QUOTE=Graham H; I will also say (again) that you cannot judge Philipps VT without being stood in front of him and I am 100% certain that like the rest of us who have gone you will leave with a different idea of Ving Tsun.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Between Graham and Kevin there is a lot of repetitious promotion of PB. Understandable promotion of their new lineages and loyalties . True that you cannot judge a person completely from a video.
    True of anybody and most actions captured in video or photo or film or verbally described..

    Ignoring some of Kevin's jibes, including some that apparently were deleted.

    What I saw in the last PB vid that I saw--PB has good wing chun. But it is not the only possible
    game. In one piece he bong saoed the left attack and showed how he was vulnerable from a right attack. OK. Then he showed how going outside of the left witha step and using a right hand pak sao was better. Of course.

    There are several other possible alternatives depending on footwork and the timing that is used. The left bong sao was an off side bong sao and the center was being lost...you can recover with a step and continuing the bong into an elbow close quarters straight into
    the heart.

    Of course there are other alternatives including going inside instead of outside. Depends on who what how and when...the devil in the details.

    Nothing personal.

    joy chaudhuri
    Last edited by Vajramusti; 04-10-2011 at 08:32 AM.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Its not a pak sau. Its a man sau
    That is not how we do man sau in our lineage, but of course, not all lineages do things equally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    and whilst I respect your POV what you have said is typical of WCK'ers that are lost in the Chi Sau bubble.
    Maybe my previous posts were not too clear. Chi sao for us is a training tool to among other things, help develop sensitivity, softness and "listening" abitlities within the holistic structure of Wing Chun's principles and concepts.

    As the student develops new techniques and technical dimensions are added, while the intensity of the whole exercise increases. The techniques will eventually include kicks, knees, takedowns, Chin-na/Kumna ("grappling"), and more.

    Ultimately, the chi sao practice evolves into full on contact sparring and you TAKE and USE all of the faculties that you have developed in Chi Sao to your sparring.

    We DO NOT go back during sparring (unless it is dictated by a punch in the nose ).


    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    I used to have the same "sensitivity" ideas as you until I was shown the error of my ways.
    Having sensitivity "ideas" is not enough. I would hazard a guess that when you had these "ideas" you lacked authentic teachings to show you how to gain the necessary skills and implement them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    I will also say (again) that you cannot judge Philipps
    I think that I have made it more than clear that I am NOT judging Philipps!

    I merely said that we do things differently - we don't go backi - in my lineage of Wing Chun, which by all means is very different from the Hong Kong lineages. I also mentioned that the same is true as regards my Chow Gar practice.

    An inquisitive Wing Chun practitioner should wonder the why and how of this fact, without seeing himself as a traitor.......


    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    VT without being stood in front of him and I am 100% certain that like the rest of us who have gone you will leave with a different idea of Ving Tsun.
    I would say the same about you standing in front of my sifu.


    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Your sensitivity and listening abilities are nonsense!!!
    Now, who is judging who?

    Suffice to say that nowadays (read Mcdojo phenomenon), the "softness", "sensitivity" and "listening" aspects of kung fu are not practiced beyond at best, a superficial level, as a result there is a lot of misunderstanding and even ignorance, as regards this fundamental aspect of kung fu practice - especially the closer range styles.

    IMHO, this is the signs of the times we live in as regards the TMAs in general.....
    Last edited by Hardwork108; 04-10-2011 at 03:40 PM.

  5. #35
    [QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088801][QUOTE=Graham H; I will also say (again) that you cannot judge Philipps VT without being stood in front of him and I am 100% certain that like the rest of us who have gone you will leave with a different idea of Ving Tsun.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Between Graham and Kevin there is a lot of repetitious promotion of PB. Understandable promotion of their new lineages and loyalties . True that you cannot judge a person completely from a video.
    True of anybody and most actions captured in video or photo or film or verbally described..

    Ignoring some of Kevin's jibes, including some that apparently were deleted.

    What I saw in the last PB vid that I saw--PB has good wing chun. But it is not the only possible
    game. In one piece he bong saoed the left attack and showed how he was vulnerable from a right attack. OK. Then he showed how going outside of the left witha step and using a right hand pak sao was better. Of course.

    There are several other possible alternatives depending on footwork and the timing that is used. The left bong sao was an off side bong sao and the center was being lost...you can recover with a step and continuing the bong into an elbow close quarters straight into
    the heart.

    Of course there are other alternatives including going inside instead of outside. Depends on who what how and when...the devil in the details.

    Nothing personal.

    joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]

    I deleted my own posts joy Im not here to have a feud ....no need fueling a fire of misunderstandings from my attempts to explain in words what takes seconds with hands on face to face. Bottom line is that I and GH both have something to share. Not promoting, simply put PB isnt a marketing guy or a dvd merchant etc...very quiet guy humble. I started to try and share the elbow thinking and I got Terence Nubnutz treatment. Like I was making up WSL system

    Of course there are alternatives, your only seeing a tip of the 'berg, so to speak.

    What the bong sao turning part was trying to explain, was that if you try to use your body and arm to lose facing , over turning to redirect with bong etc....a 'facer' would simply take your flank and hit directly...what we do, let you turn , lean, reach wobble , etc...and attack while facing. this can be sideways back and angling , forwards etc...
    Last edited by k gledhill; 04-10-2011 at 04:13 PM.

  6. #36
    [QUOTE=k gledhill;1088827][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088801]

    I deleted my own posts joy Im not here to have a feud ....no need fueling a fire of misunderstandings from my attempts to explain in words
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Agree no feuding needed. I very much respect WSL- though I am not in that lineage.


    joy chaudhuri

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Its not a pak sau. Its a man sau and whilst I respect your POV what you have said is typical of WCK'ers that are lost in the Chi Sau bubble. I used to have the same "sensitivity" ideas as you until I was shown the error of my ways. I will also say (again) that you cannot judge Philipps VT without being stood in front of him and I am 100% certain that like the rest of us who have gone you will leave with a different idea of Ving Tsun.

    Your sensitivity and listening abilities are nonsense!!!

    GH




    It doesnt have to get here.

    Technical is technical and there are different alternative.

    WSL lineage has some signatures and some great points which is evolved further. But that is not the only thing in WCK. So, to discuss what is the pro and con technically is better then starting to get ego involved.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
    That is not how we do man sau in our lineage, but of course, not all lineages do things equal.............



    Now, who is judging who?

    Suffice to say that nowadays (read Mcdojo phenomenon), the "softness", "sensitivity" and "listening" aspects of kung fu are not practiced beyond at best, a superficial level, as a result there is a lot of misunderstanding and even ignorance, as regards this fundamental aspect of kung fu practice - especially the closer range styles.

    IMHO, this is the signs of the times we live in as regards the TMAs in general.....

    There is no point to get into ego stuffs.


    If one knows the 6DFV and the 20Ch, then very clearly one sees the pro and cons of different methods. No one is GOD and perfect, thus every methods has pro and cons and could be analyzed clearly without going into ego ...

  9. #39
    To avoid misunderstandings, let me give you an example of how I was taught to deal with the same type of attack you see on 0:15. Instead of going back with a pak, I would make a 45 degree step forward the outside of my opponent's left side. My "to be" trapped arm would turn into Tan Sao (or tan/lap combination), while my right fist would target the left side of the opponent's neck.

    So what is the different between this two WCK methods? strickly technical, what is the pro and cons?

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    There is no point to get into ego stuffs.


    If one knows the 6DFV and the 20Ch, then very clearly one sees the pro and cons of different methods. No one is GOD and perfect, thus every methods has pro and cons and could be analyzed clearly without going into ego ...
    }
    I agree. My point was the same as yours. There are different ways to do the same thing. We do it by avoiding going back.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    So what is the different between this two WCK methods? strickly technical, what is the pro and cons?
    Well, the difference in performing the forward way, one will need a different mindset and skills such as fine tuned sensitivity and "listening" abilities, that allow the defender to react immediately in a forward direction as soon as the opponent makes contact (bridge), hence not allowing him to complete his attack.

    The other way is to go back and set up a counter attack. Which is a strategy that I have seen more in karate than in kung fu - personally speaking, that is.

    HOwever, what Philipp Bayer does is also valid, because he is still using Wing Chun. What I was trying to explain was my school's approach, which is to avoid going back and absorb and flow through the incoming attack.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    There is no point to get into ego stuffs.


    If one knows the 6DFV and the 20Ch, then very clearly one sees the pro and cons of different methods. No one is GOD and perfect, thus every methods has pro and cons and could be analyzed clearly without going into ego ...

    And if one doesnt know??

    Thats comment is beyond egotistical

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
    Well, the difference in performing the forward way, one will need a different mindset and skills such as fine tuned sensitivity and "listening" abilities, that allow the defender to react immediately in a forward direction as soon as the opponent makes contact (bridge), hence not allowing him to complete his attack.

    The other way is to go back and set up a counter attack. Which is a strategy that I have seen more in karate than in kung fu - personally speaking, that is.

    HOwever, what Philipp Bayer does is also valid, because he is still using Wing Chun. What I was trying to explain was my school's approach, which is to avoid going back and absorb and flow through the incoming attack.

    You know, we dont even have to get here.


    Saying what is WCK or what is not and all the reason above really doesnt make sense; that is because that doesnt said anything on momentum handling which is physics and the core of the whole theme.


    This analysis can be totally objective if one using the natural of the momentum handling as independent variable.

    Take a look at the momentum characteristics and the pro and con is clearly express. Again, that is the reason I keep mention 20Ch 6DFV with the tools we could have an objective view.


    So again, what is the pro and con of both technics under the physics of momentum?




    For me,

    It is very obvious what P.B is using is WSL's Blood and Sweat.

    One can see WSL's understanding on the 6DFV, timing, and sensing very well. P.B or others who uses WSL's solution might or might not understand what is it and why is it similar to those who drive a car doesnt know why the car is designed. So, to discuss technically is to get to this level of understanding and discuss its pro and con.


    Compare with Fong's technics in the previous thread, WSL solution is superior then Fong's in frontal confrontation. yes, both has structure....ect but WSL solution is an upgrade evolution. Fong's tech is usual WCK and usefull but it is a different grade when a slit of second and the rush frontal momentum handling needs to be handle. Fong's technics will collapse where WSL solution works. And can WSL further evolve? yes, that is going toward advance WCK.

    Your method as you post IMHO cant handle the incoming momentum well even it is technically correct in using the WCK technics combination. so, it is "correct" WCK combination but it is disaster in high speed momentum handling. IMHO. you know why it doesnt work? because you did not considerate or Sense the momentum which come toward you. WCner with 6dfv training will sense the momentum similar to something get into the 6dfv radar screen, its direction, and its speed, and has to deal with it. that is sensing and that is soft. Sensing doesnt means touching soft doesnt mean weak.


    Further more, it is not that Man sau or Pak sau, it is the dissolving of in coming momentum and still in the tracking offensive range which is important, that man sau or pak sau or what ever is just a tracking and second insurance, IMHO.


    Thus, because we could learn and know the insigh, we can predict win and lost before even the match. that is real kung fu.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 04-11-2011 at 08:49 AM.

  14. #44
    [QUOTE=Hendrik;1088873]


    Compare with Fong's technics in the previous thread, WSL solution is superior then Fong's in frontal confrontation. yes, both has structure....ect but WSL solution is an upgrade evolution. Fong's tech is usual WCK and usefull but it is a different grade when a slit of second and the rush frontal momentum handling needs to be handle. Fong's technics will collapse where WSL solution works. And can WSL further evolve? yes, that is going toward advance WCK.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hi Hendrik-WSL is good as I have said. I actually have rolled with him on two different occasions
    and have a sense of his structure.Not just video watching.

    But as far as your above comparison I don't think that you know what you are talking about. Video watching and lost in thought.I will let it go at that.

    joy chaudhuri

  15. #45
    [QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088883]
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post


    Compare with Fong's technics in the previous thread, WSL solution is superior then Fong's in frontal confrontation. yes, both has structure....ect but WSL solution is an upgrade evolution. Fong's tech is usual WCK and usefull but it is a different grade when a slit of second and the rush frontal momentum handling needs to be handle. Fong's technics will collapse where WSL solution works. And can WSL further evolve? yes, that is going toward advance WCK.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hi Hendrik-WSL is good as I have said. I actually have rolled with him on two different occasions
    and have a sense of his structure.Not just video watching.

    But as far as your above comparison I don't think that you know what you are talking about. Video watching and lost in thought.I will let it go at that.

    joy chaudhuri


    Joy,

    You are right. I might not know what I am talking about since I have never met WSL or Fong as you do.

    Perhaps, put it as the following better express my view.
    observing the Triangle Drilling momentum of WSL solution vesus Fong's linear momentum ; one is like the rock drilling machine and one is like a windmill. both are great however there are pro and con's: facing a triangle drilling machine or windmill. that is where I based my opinion in. so it is not WSL or Fong but the triangle drilling or windmill which I am focusing on.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 04-11-2011 at 09:15 AM.

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