Misconceptions about Wing Chun

[k gledhill]

The basic ideas being developed in dan chi sao onwards and redundant aspects....many are confused by chi sao and its goals.

[k gledhill]

We've seen quite a few videos now of Philipp Bayer training and using his Ving Tsun. No doubt he is an inspiration to his students and those in the wider VT/WC community.

Something occured to me the other day about some of the actions and hand 'postures' in Wing Chun.

Wu sao is performed with hand outstretched, fingers vertical. Some people perform laap sau as a grabbing/pulling action.

Clearly Philipp can't do that on one side because he only has one hand. This made me question some of the basic premises of the Wing Chun postures/actions. How is the basic action performed, from where? I'm guessing elbow, elbow, elbow.

Comments? Especially from PB students Kevin G and Graham H.

Think tut sao aka shaving hands. We make new striking attacks by recycling the lead,spent fist, with a new wu sao [aka new attacking hand].
When we make a rear wu with bong, for example, we try to drop bong elbow as wu strikes out, like abstract tut sao. Thereby combining, striking, clearing line and meeting any obstructions 'mindlessly' as we strike attack along the centerline...so wu to fok in slt reinforces this ....elbow in and forwards from X'ing centerline at wrists.

Do you know the difference between lop sao and jut sao ? When you would use one or the other and why ? Philipp explained it clearly.

[couch]

You said it CFT; elbow, elbow elbow. And the connection between the elbows and the hips. This is drilled over and over again in chi sao, lap sau and the various footwork drills- along with pretty much everything else!

Here is how Mr. Bayer described it during a recent discussion on a German martial arts forum:

"Lap Sao zb. dient u.a. der Koordination zwischen Jut und dem Fausstoß. Koordination von Hüfte und Ellenbogen und Zug, mit dem Ziel die Kraft des ganzen Körpers in die Schläge bringen zu können...."

"Lap Sao, for example, helps build, among other things, the coordination between the Jut and punch. Coordination between hips, elbows and pull - the goal being the ability to bring the power of the whole body into one's punches...."(italics mine)

This is the same for other activities from boxing to throwing a ball.

It's just that 'traditional' training goes about linking all of this bass ackwards.

[k gledhill]

This is the same for other activities from boxing to throwing a ball.

It's just that 'traditional' training goes about linking all of this bass ackwards.

None of the above strike and use elbows, facing like VT . Sadly the 'wrist' has been taking over in bad chi-sao exchanges for years.

[Sean66]

Throwing a ball normally uses mostly shoulder and arm muscles together with the "whipping" of the wrist.

But if you want to throw a ball well, like a good pitcher, you have to get your whole body behind it. And hopefully you have a good coach who can teach you good "body methods" to do this, like pushing off the rubber correctly and the coordination between hip and shoulder on the follow-through. If you don't have a good coach, you'll probably end up throwing out your arm.
This is what happened to me as a freshman pitching on the varsity team (going waaaay back!). The coaches had me throwing weighted balls instead of teaching me proper body mechanics. By the end of the season my arm was finished.

I agree about boxers, they get their whole body behind punches as well. But as Kevin pointed out, Ving Tsun is not boxing, and has different training requirements. Nonetheless, it's logically constructed pedagogically....why do you say it develops whole body power in a "bass ackwards" manner? Maybe you could elaborate.

[Lee Chiang Po]

what is the difference between Wing Chun and Ving Tsun? and why is there a difference in spelling if they are the same? Clearly one can not be the other, or is it just a geographical thing, like Hong Kong or Berlin?

[Vajramusti]

what is the difference between Wing Chun and Ving Tsun? and why is there a difference in spelling if they are the same? Clearly one can not be the other, or is it just a geographical thing, like Hong Kong or Berlin?

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I belive the Chinese written characters are the same for the Cantonese sounds for wing chun and ving tsun. Preferences are by choice of schools and teachers.
In the north it becomes yong chun in the romanization.
Leung Ting prefers Wing Tsun.
William Cheung uses Traditional Wing Chun.
Romanization of cantonese is less uniform than of mandarin terms.

Hooray for chaos.

jc

[LoneTiger108]

what is the difference between Wing Chun and Ving Tsun? and why is there a difference in spelling if they are the same? Clearly one can not be the other, or is it just a geographical thing, like Hong Kong or Berlin?

Joy is correct. The Romanization of the characters varies actually depending on what Cantonese-English dictionaries you use. The character for ving/wing and tsun/tjun/chun is the same. Unless you go into the new'er' 'weng' that is only slightly different than 'wing' and I'm waiting for a new millennium version too! Maybe we will all be Yong Chun by 2020

There are a few stories that explain a little of the history behind the 'name change' because originally Ip (originially Yip!) Mans students spelt it as Wing Chun and some felt that using the WC abreviation in the UK was just asking for insults from other Martial Artists!

[Hardwork108]

Joy is correct. The Romanization of the characters varies actually depending on what Cantonese-English dictionaries you use. The character for ving/wing and tsun/tjun/chun is the same. Unless you go into the new'er' 'weng' that is only slightly different than 'wing' and I'm waiting for a new millennium version too! Maybe we will all be Yong Chun by 2020

There are a few stories that explain a little of the history behind the 'name change' because originally Ip (originially Yip!) Mans students spelt it as Wing Chun and some felt that using the WC abreviation in the UK was just asking for insults from other Martial Artists!

The way things - including the constant cluelessness - in this forum are going, don't be surprised that I start referring to many posters, as practitioners of WIND CHUN.....

[Phil Redmond]

what is the difference between Wing Chun and Ving Tsun? and why is there a difference in spelling if they are the same? Clearly one can not be the other, or is it just a geographical thing, like Hong Kong or Berlin?

Here you go:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ght=wing+choon
Since Chinese don't use Roman letters it's ALWAYS going to be Wing Cheun/Choon in Cantonese. No native speaker will pronounce the V. In English was can write V-V W or two U's for the letter W. So Ving is still pronounced Wing regardless of how we Westerners spell it.