Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 38

Thread: Is complex and advanced necessarily better

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    4,381

    Is complex and advanced necessarily better

    chusauli 04-12-2011 06:04 PM

    Hung Ga is a great training method and is a complex advanced art, but few have the ability to teach it as a fighting art, so it remains largely, a performance art for health or cultural relic.

    The torso methods, methods of issuing force, dissolving of force through the stance, closing in, sticking, controlling all require long term teaching and practice to develop a person.

    If a person pays attention to Lien Gung and mainly strengthens himself, concentrates on the Kiu Sao and how to enter and control, they will be better than average people in terms of power, and probably stronger than most martial artists.

    The danger in Hung Ga is locking into looks, performance, showmanship.
    This post from Robert is I think worthy of a new thread, and it not aimed specifically at hung gar OR Robert but rather the points he raises

    What exactly makes a style a complex and advanced art and what arts are we comparing it to that we feel are simple and straight forward, and is complex and advanced necessarily better?

    Another question I have is how can something be a great training method if in the next sentence we say few have the ability to teach it properly as a fighting style (I have heard the same said by people on the wing chun forum about their art) ? Isn’t the whole point of a great training method that it is easy to learn and produces good people and works for the majority of people learning it?

    My final question is if the torso methods, force issuing methods dissolving methods etc take that long to learn, how on earth did people survive long enough to actually keep the art alive? I have a hard time believing that when these arts were needed in order to help people actually survive in hostile time’s arts that took a long time to learn were that useful or survived

    To be honest when I read advanced, complex, difficult to learn and takes a long time I wonder if
    A) its worth learning and
    B) is this necessarily true or simply an excuse to hide bad teaching or an inferior art,

    any thoughts?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    NW Arkansas
    Posts
    1,392
    Most of the southern stuff is too complicated for me. When you start getting into all the bridges, animals, and stuff, it doesn't work for me.

    I have always found that the less i have to think while fighting the better. That's just me though.
    It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    The simple answer is that it depends.
    It depends on what you are training for.
    It depends on what your goals are.
    It depends on how far you want to take any given MA.
    IT depends on what the advanced and complex is.

    Sometimes the advanced is something that can give you an edge because it is different, it presents a puzzle to the opponent that he has no solution or limited solutions for.
    Sometimes the advanced and complex is just a big freaking wast of time.
    Other times it is what makes the system 100% effective as opposed to just "good enough".
    Most will say that boxing is simple and basic but boxing can be very advanced and complex as well, it depends on what level you are and where you are taking it and IF you need it to be more than just "good enough".
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    1,436
    I think the question that needs to be asked is how effective can an individual person make it.

    Often in Kung Fu you have intricate techniques and details that teachers or practioners make more complicated than they really are. You strike with the fist (different postures), open hand, and elbow. You can break this variety down into Dragon's Knuckle, Crane's Head, Monkey Paw, Leopard Paw, Phoneix Eye, ect, ect., but in the end it is a strike with the forementioned part of the body. Ask yourself can you do this technique in sparring or fighting. Is it a technique better suited for striking from a distance or striking from clinch.

    These are the kinds of questions one needs to break down "advanced" techniques. Advanced to me means being able to pull off this technique in several scenirios, not just one. Jab, Cross, Hook, Uppercut are the strikes found in boxing, however the ability to strike with these four punches in a range of scenirios takes years of practice and experience. Kung Fu is no different.
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". -Cus D'Amato

  5. #5
    advanced doesn't mean "complex"

    I can use the jab very simply

    I have a lot of "advanced" ways to use a jab

    Complex means having a lot of moving parts, and stages, none of which works in a real fight

    the use of angles, slipping, intercepting, countering, etc are all advanced and used all the time
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Huntington, NY, USA website: TenTigers.com
    Posts
    7,718
    one of the things I like about Hung-Ga is that on its most basic level, crashing, slamming, element punches, grab and punch, it is easy to learn, and highly effective.
    Many people leave it at that, and are fine with it. Others enjoy the pursuit of the more subtle aspects and skillsets-which is fine too.
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Huntington, NY, USA website: TenTigers.com
    Posts
    7,718
    let's also keep in mind that most practitioners, unless they are professional fighters, do not train all day, every day.
    "High level" skill in anything, can be achieved in a short time, but not by weekend warriors.
    Steve Vai locked himself in his bedroom and practiced ten hours a day. So did Joe Satriani, Zakk Wylde, and anyone else who became a Guitar God.
    It's called, "woodshedding."
    How many of us can devote the time required for "high level skill?"
    So, I am content to be able to have decent chops, and go to blues jams at the local roadhouse, and enjoy a night of playing with good musicians. I know I will never play Carnegie Hall.
    I also know I can fight and defend myself and my loved ones, and enjoy my training, and play and share with other Martial Artists. I will never fight GSP.

    Old musician joke:
    A guy walks up to a street sax player in NYC and asks for directions.
    "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?"
    "Practice, Man. Practice!"
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Canada!
    Posts
    23,110
    In my view point "advanced" is about ability to use.

    It's one thing to know how to make a fist and hit, it's another thing to do it, do it accurately and do it with power.

    That's advanced.

    In tcma, the advanced is also considered ability to express.

    More difficult martial expressions to execute are considered advanced material for the student though, to be fair and in keeping context with the OP.

    so front snap kick = beginner
    Tornado kick = intermediate
    Jump, handstand to splits, pop up and tornado kick front and reverse = advanced. Being able to use that with a high percentage? Totally and astronomically advanced! lol
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Augusta, GA
    Posts
    5,096
    Steve Vai is a BEAST.
    The weakest of all weak things is a virtue that has not been tested in the fire.
    ~ Mark Twain

    Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit.
    ~ Joe Lewis

    A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
    ~ Author unknown

    "You don't feel lonely.Because you have a lively monkey"

    "Ninja can HURT the Spartan, but the Spartan can KILL the Ninja"

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Canada!
    Posts
    23,110
    Quote Originally Posted by Drake View Post
    Steve Vai is a BEAST.
    He's also a natural and possessed by a demon.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Huntington, NY, USA website: TenTigers.com
    Posts
    7,718
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    In my view point "advanced" is about ability to use.

    It's one thing to know how to make a fist and hit, it's another thing to do it, do it accurately and do it with power.

    That's advanced.

    In tcma, the advanced is also considered ability to express.

    More difficult martial expressions to execute are considered advanced material for the student though, to be fair and in keeping context with the OP.

    so front snap kick = beginner
    Tornado kick = intermediate
    Jump, handstand to splits, pop up and tornado kick front and reverse = advanced. Being able to use that with a high percentage? Totally and astronomically advanced! lol
    to add to that-
    a front snap kick =beginner
    front snap kick intercepting the opponent's intent and movement, shutting him down on the half-beat=advanced.
    Advanced technique is often just a refinement of the original skill. Nothing is new, just refined. Distance, timing, speed. Perception, reaction, etc. These all come with the investment of time and practice=Gung-Fu.
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  12. #12
    Complex only if your learning format is missing parts.

    Complex only if there is alot of parts to be work on before learning forms.

    Simple to learn when you have all parts and then to learn forms.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    1,355
    Complexity and Advanced is necessary, or else we will always be at the same low level.

    As for better? What is better? Basics are best. Advanced is basics applies in variation or set up in a hidden way.

    If it doesn't get preserved, we will have lost it, then have to re-engineer it in future generations.

    If we can't make it work for ourselves now, maybe we're not advanced enough to do it, or have not trained realistically enough in drilling it, or are too obvious trying to apply it.

    As for fighting, you can learn core essentials in a short period of time and mostly train that for fighting, spar under all circumstances and apply a few go-to tools. Then spend the rest of your life perfecting the allegedly complex.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Midgard
    Posts
    10,852
    Complexity can be an inhibitor in any endeavor if you cannot make sense and use of what you are doing in a 'natural' fashion. In training, working on complex strategies, or applications is ok, that's how we push our self many times. In actual application outside of a strictly learning and developing environment complex is something that does not come into play much after a fashion, it does, but only in the eye of the beholder. what i mean is that while it may seem complex to your or your opponent (the person not doing what ever it is that appears to be complex), what you are doing in your fight will be what comes out naturally due to your training. Perspectives change with experience. Everyone has 'advanced' material in their core set of tools. You may try for some advanced thing or other yet with a very basic enter and be shut down, or set that left right left jab cross hook with some fancy feet and weaving and floor your opponent.

    I think more important is being able to use what you train interchangeably.

    so to me, that answer is really yes and no at the same time.
    Last edited by Lucas; 04-13-2011 at 01:14 PM.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    94
    It also depends on who you plan to fight. There's an old saying that says, "Don't fear the 1000 of kicks someone has practiced once, fear the 1 kick someone has practiced 1000 times." However, I disagree with this statement. If I know that someone will only throw a front snap kick off of their right leg when its behind them in a bow stance, I know that I can focus on defending against only hand techniques unless they are in a left forward bowstance. If I know how to defend against that one technique, I can defeat that person, if all other things are equal.

    The more complex a "style" of fighting is, i.e.: the more variety of maneuvers available to a fighter, the less predictable that fighter is. Being able to anticipate an opponent's likely steps makes up for deficits in speed and power.

    That being said, the more complex a style is, the longer it would take to become proficient in enough techniques to actually be able to apply them martially.

    The question becomes, as previously stated: why do you want to study MA? There also is an added question of WHEN do you want to hit the apex of your abilities. If you want to learn to fight quickly, learn a few moves (like a western kickboxer, or even western boxing). You can become proficient in the majority of the techniques more quickly. This is not to say that you can't get any better after a short period of time. You can still get better, but I'd say the returns would greatly diminish. If you want to become a great fighter, but have a long timeline for your goal, you could learn a more complex form.

    Personally, my system has multiple forms with multiple theories. We have a sparring form that is designed to teach a beginner basic self-defense techniques in a matter of a few months. You probably wont be winning against accomplished martial artists of similar abilities, but you will be better at fighting or self defense in a quicker period. After learning that basic set, we continue to learn multiple "complex" forms and styles, anything from tiger to crane to drunken.

    Personally, I aspire to master the drunken immortal system. Why? Because I find it interesting and challenging. I can see that it will be drastically inefficient to learn it for combat purposes. My body type, lack of flexibility, and other issues make it highly unlikely that I will be good at it for many years. However, I am not likely to get in a fight or need self defense. My goal is challenging my body to do things that I can't currently do. Its like climbing a mountain with the only justification being "it is there." I'm sure I could be a better fighter in less time, but for me Kung Fu is about a lifestyle. Its about devoting time to practice something just to see how well you can do it, if you continue to do it over and over for a looooooooong time. Why? Because when I started I couldn't do Kung Fu. Now I can (sorta). And I find that (that I can now do things that I couldn't before ) awesome.
    Sith Legal Kung Fu is unstoppable.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •