What started the cult/worship mentality in martial arts.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

We all like to make fun of the cults and the kooks that inhabit the world of martial arts, but in all seriousness what do you feel or what in your experience causes the martial cult phenomenon?

Sometimes I call it the messiah/Jesus Christ complex, where the students see their teacher as some kind of savior to them. I recently was reading an article someone wrote about Pai Lum who studied under Daniel Pai and they constantly referred to him as "The Master". I feel this above all else produces the cult mentality when people worship an instructor like some deity of sorts. Anyway, please discuss.

[CYMac]

"The Master" is just same as "sifu" in Chinese, but I never heard of people worhsipping their masters though. Maybe some worship them when they die like an ancestor because they respect their master like a father in the old days. Nowadays, this is no too common. But it's not that they think their sifu is a deity or something.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

"The Master" is just same as "sifu" in Chinese, but I never heard of people worhsipping their masters though. Maybe some worship them when they die like an ancestor because they respect their master like a father in the old days. Nowadays, this is no too common. But it's not that they think their sifu is a deity or something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhnvE...eature=related

[CYMac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhnvE...eature=related

I saw something called "Kunlun Neigong" before which is about the same, they do spiritual possession and evil magic, but they claim they are some what related to Mao Shan Sect. I have got 5 students in the past who got this practice in their past and after their learn from me, they have to exorcise so much evil magic out of them because those "masters" cast evil magic on them and also use ghost spirits to possess them to make them move spontaneously. In Chinese culture, some "master" do it too and call it 自發功 (spontaneous chi gung) which some use the form of martial arts, some use the form of chi gung to present itself. But it is not really kungfu. Creepy stuff!

*one of my student even got his family and business all screwed by doing these kinds of spontaneous chi gung, really not a good idea to do it!*

[sanjuro_ronin]

The 'worship" starts when the teacher/coach (Sifu) starts being viewed as a "master".
You don't see it in "sports oriented" systems because the coach or teacher is always just that and makes it very clear that he is JUST that.
In SOME TMA, the instructors go beyond that, usually because they have some deep rooted inferiority complex that they are trying to compensate for.
Typicaly they are unproven fighters that are trying to live off the anecodets of past teachers that were fighters or made up anecodotes of themselves that no one can verify.
You don't see this in gyms/schools that the teacher is/was an actual fighter.

[bawang]

students can call a guy master but few will call him friend.

[CYMac]

students can call a guy master but few will call him friend.

Um.. my students call me "Mak Jo Si" as they are my Taoism students. But they also treat me and talk to me like a friend.

Calling your sifu or master "hey dude" or "hi friend" is just not respectful in language. It's a virtue to pay respect to who you learn from. That's also part of martial arts learning. Just like in Karate, TKD, you call your master Sensei which is like "master" in Japanese as well. They also kept the tradition of paying respect to their masters as well. It's a good thing to have virtues.

[goju]

The Asch Conformity Experiment likely plays a role int he cult thing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_co...ty_experiments

[sanjuro_ronin]

Um.. my students call me "Mak Jo Si" as they are my Taoism students. But they also treat me and talk to me like a friend.

Calling your sifu or master "hey dude" or "hi friend" is just not respectful in language. It's a virtue to pay respect to who you learn from. That's also part of martial arts learning. Just like in Karate, TKD, you call your master Sensei which is like "master" in Japanese as well. They also kept the tradition of paying respect to their masters as well. It's a good thing to have virtues.

Sensei means teacher, NOT master.

[CYMac]

Sensei means teacher, NOT master.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensei

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sifu

For reference, very close right? Master is just the english for "sifu" which is often used by people. It's just a language thing.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The term Sifu or Sensei IMO should be viewed as teacher, what it is meant to convey. It really is no different than in boxing or MMA when guys call their coach "coach". They are the person teaching them this art or sport, nothing more, nothing less. The term "master" brings with it many negative connotations which can and should be avoided.

Webster's Dictionary defintion of Master- "A male person having another living being so far subject to his will, that he can, in the main, control his or its actions; - formerly used with much more extensive application than now."

Does that sound like something you want to be a part of

[Ben Gash]

However, in UK English up until 40 years ago master was used to refer to schoolteachers.

[CFT]

However, in UK English up until 40 years ago master was used to refer to schoolteachers.

Probably still in use at places like Eton and Harrow.

[David Jamieson]

However, in UK English up until 40 years ago master was used to refer to schoolteachers.

And, it is still used to address young people under the age of 12.

Young master so and so etc.

I don't think a boxing coach is anything like a sifu at all.
I've been with both and they are quite different.

Kung Fu, is simply more than just a martial art. there are a lot of peripheral offerings to be absorbed as well.

the pugilism of it can be learned without that of course, but that wouldn't be in keeping with the very idea of attaining Kung Fu! lol

this is what people struggle with I think. They want to believe that martial arts is martial arts, that a kick is a kick and a punch is a punch etc, and it is. But there are other things within Kung Fu training that go beyond that simple model of attack and defend. And, each teacher will ahve different levels of knowledge and understanding to apply. Iron work, Zen(ch'an), Qigongs, functional strength development through work imitating resistance training, and in some cases more! Things like tying sword work to calligraphy lessons or spear and staff work to same. Training in different environments and terrain types, Lion Dance! Cultural artifacts of study...and a lot more still. there is simply not a good comparison to a full Kung Fu offering and a martial arts coaching scenario. they are quite different environments. In America and Europe and other western nations, it is not an easy thing to insert into a culture based on strong individualism. there is an attitude of immediate rejection of the idea of a master. maybe "expert" should be used instead to get over that hurdle.

Having said that, the simple model will have you fighting a lot faster than a slow progressive self discovery and transformation methodology such as Kung Fu training is. that's the facts jack.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Kung Fu, is simply more than just a martial art. there are a lot of peripheral offerings to be absorbed as well.

True, but that still should have little bearing as to what title someone goes by. In school students refer to their teachers as Mr. or Mrs., in college the same unless that person has a PHD, than they may refer to them as Dr. Those titles are bestowed to instill respect, however, there is no worship or underling that goes along with these.

The problem is when worship of a master or even the art becomes more prevalent than the pugilism, it ceases to be a martial art and becomes a martial cult!