Internal vs. External

[Eric Olson]

anything you expect to do in fighting is "extrapolated" from forms practice, it's why really you can dump forms entirely

what is push hands? really? listening, redirecting, yielding, pulling, pushing, these are wrestling skills...

I think you are fundamentally correct but Taiji people don't like to use the term "wrestling" because it implies a test of strength rather than skill.

EO

[Eric Olson]

Some Taiji master said that to bend the head downward is against the Taiji principle. The funnest thing is if you throw a $100 bill in front of his feet, he will "bend".

That's not exactly correct. True, you must try to stay "straight up and down" but it's less about your physical shape and more about the internal connection to the ground.

Since the hip throw is the mother of all throws, it's a good testcase for people who believes that taiji is a throwing art and not a striking art.

Taiji has Ti Da Shuai Na just like all the other CMAs.

I can't remember when I've ever seen a hip throw Taiji so I'm guessing it's not there. Not sure why it violates principles though. Would you agree that it's hard to hip throw someone that's on balance?

[SPJ]

Still don't see any "bend your back forward and downward".

yes. modern version of cross step single whip removed the bending back forward

but you traced the posture to earlier version especially chen or pre yang, you see it.

this is actually very common posture across many styles

in ba ji it is called tong bei shi with some variations

--

there are several throw methods in that posture

let me use needle at bottom sea or hai di zhen in yang cheng fu tai chi then.

http://dongfangtaiji.5u.com/photo3.html

[SPJ]

actually the 8 jin

peng lu ji an --

they all can be used to throw

[SPJ]

one side note

yang cheng fu postures are actually modified in 1930's (they are called yang cheng fu large frame or da jia)

they are more expansive or centralized for exercise or health purpose

the actual postures would be smaller or more compact

--

all the modern wushu yang forms are based on yang cheng fu da jia.

or further modified.

--

[YouKnowWho]

Would you agree that it's hard to hip throw someone that's on balance?

The hip throw has nothing to do with your opponent's balance but has to do with his force direction. If your opponent sinks down and collapse his body sturcture, it will be difficult to apply a hip throw on him. When that happen, you have to use combo that borrow his sinking force and "help" him to go down. Here is an example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXFLIlgvI8

The principle of "borrowing force" is always helping your opponent to do whatever that he wants to do and never against his will. If your opponent wants to

- sink, you help him to sink more.
- raise, you help him to raise more.
- move back, you help him to move back more.
- move forward, you help him to move forward more.
- ...

If your opponent don't want to move, you force him to move, you then borrow his force after that - give first and take later.

[YiQuanOne]

I have read thru this entire post, and it seems only one person is on an internal path or can see the difference, that is sad to see. Well at least I can see where everyone is in their journey.

I would suggest most people re-evaluated their path, most everone sounds like they are on the external path. You can not find the internal through the external. It is like trying to evaluate a new food when you have not emptied your mouth of the old food.

Once you find the internal you can add the external because now you have both and can now choose what you want to use or do to get the result you want.


The winner of the knowelge trivia game is Eric Olson.

Well done. If you can't see the difference in the videos, you have no idea, it is clear as day.

[lkfmdc]

The winner of the knowelge trivia game is Eric Olson.

[瓜娃子]

winner of too many posts with too little content is..

David Ross

[lkfmdc]

[瓜娃子]

Your avatar is of an ape. You look like even more of a fool than normal.

[Ray Pina]

It will be great if we can have internal clip and external clip side by side so we can clear see the difference. I'll suggest the following 4 pairs different clips for both "internal" and "external".

1. punch to the head.
2. kick to the chest.
3. lock on the elbow.
4. hip throw on the body.

If you do believe that there is difference between "internal" and "external", would you mind to share your clips here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA6sLOQpO4w

at 46 seconds in. That is an internal strike. Tai Ji opening move

at 1:05 internal-ish intercept, wedging entry... lost it/sloppy then external striking

1:30 definitely internal uplifting. E-Chuan 100%

2:42 to 3:05 pure external

3:22 is a beautiful display of back-foot-driven, intercept-and-stick-and-follow, knock someone down and spin them power. An example of skill if I saw so myself.

[GeneChing]

Internal, External, & Hybrids
Classifying Kung Fu 2.0
By Williy Pang


SUMMER 2019

[Yoshiyahu]

If you do a thousand punches a day you have internal power.
Break it down 500 punches do it slow with no power but focus on correct structure and correct form
then do 500 Hundred after that against a wall bag or Mook Yan Jong with power.

Then you will have EXTERNAL power.

Throw a punch with no formal training is purely external.

[SteveLau]

If you do a thousand punches a day you have internal power...

Yoshiyahu, I largely agree with your words.

Today many schools of style have internal and external training. To quote a comment by an sport instructor, that I came across on the web, "an athlete cannot reach his full athletic potential without mastering breathing skill first." CMA has similar view in that "a martial artist without internal conditioning will not reach the advanced level."




Regards,

KC
Hong Kong