Internal vs. External

[SPJ]

there is a legend about yielding

if you may hold the sparrow or cute little birdie in your palm

you yield everytime the birdie tries to fly off so that it may not

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there are both internal and external working in your palm

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[KC Elbows]

This time we ask people if they can provide youtube clips for:

- "internal" roundhouse kick,
- "internal" hip throw,
- "internal" arm bar,
- ...

I do think if you can prove that you can do "internal" hip throw, you should write a book about it.

I would say any throw, at its best, requires knowing the direction and extent of the opponent's motion, and utilizing the least effort to make that into an imbalance of the opponent, which is pretty much what everyone calls internal, ting jing, minimum effort maximum result.

The problem is when people assume it's only a component of internal styles.

The problem is when a lot of people doing external styles of kung fu don't seem to do any of it when any decent style from any other region of the world does.

The problem is when many people doing internal styles of kung fu don't seem to do it.

The problem is talking about techniques more than experiencing them.

The other problem is you people fail to take the interweb with its proper seriousness.

[YouKnowWho]

The problem is when many people doing internal styles of kung fu don't seem to do it.

- IMA guys don't do hip throw.
- EMA guys don't "rotate his Dien Tien" for the hip throw.

This is why this discussion may never go anywhere.

When the "internal" discussion go beyond the boundary, those IMA guys don't know how to address the issue (such as hip throw, roundhouse kick, ...). This is a good example that the concept "internal" has not been tested from all angles yet.

[David Jamieson]

thats like old samurai stories of masters incappacitating small birds with a kiai.

uh...that can be done actually...

just sayin...

[SPJ]

some said one may neuter a fly

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[Golden Arms]

YouKnowWho,

To me, "internal" is largely in part "connected" to the ground through your movements. An example of this in throwing would be carry oneself in such a way that ones balance and posture are not easily disrupted. Movements done in this way do not generally over-commit the balance of the person performing them, and allow in many cases, increased control on how the force of the opponent travels through the body and often back into them.

The measure of what one is capable of doing "internally" is really a measure of what each individual can do, not a broad definition that applies to all.

I consider this footage as an example of "internal" work relating to throwing and countering.

http://youtu.be/uFXbuszijCM

[Lucas]

uh...that can be done actually...

just sayin...

sure, i can see that....but have you ever seen a person knock a bird out with a shout? i havnt, but if someone could get that on film and proove it, that would be huge.

so until i can see proof of it being done, its one of those things that scientifically speaking is possible, yet humanly speaking isnt very probable.

[YouKnowWho]

YouKnowWho,

To me, "internal" is largely in part "connected" to the ground through your movements. An example of this in throwing would be carry oneself in such a way that ones balance and posture are not easily disrupted. Movements done in this way do not generally over-commit the balance of the person performing them, and allow in many cases, increased control on how the force of the opponent travels through the body and often back into them.

The measure of what one is capable of doing "internally" is really a measure of what each individual can do, not a broad definition that applies to all. Others may use different term such as core engine, snake engine, ...

I consider this footage as an example of "internal" work relating to throwing and countering.

http://youtu.be/uFXbuszijCM

I like your general view for this discussion. Someone once said that if you can't rotate your Dien Tien then you are not qualified to be called as a IMA guy.

IMO, there is only a right way of doing and wrong way of doing. There is no "internal" way of doing and "external" way of doing. If your

- hook punch is not as powerful as a boxer, or
- roundhouse kick is not as powerful as a MT guy, or
- hip throw is not as powerful as a SC guy, or
- shoulder lock is not as powerful as a eagle craw guy,

you are doing something wrong there.

If we can use the "right" way of doing thing, and "wrong" way of doing thing, we will never have to argue about the term "internal" any more.

[Golden Arms]

I like your general view for this discussion. Someone once said that if you can't rotate your Dien Tien then you are not qualified to be called as a IMA guy.

IMO, there is only a right way of doing and wrong way of doing. There is no "internal" way of doing and "external" way of doing. If your

- hook punch is not as powerful as a boxer, or
- roundhouse kick is not as powerful as a MT guy, or
- hip throw is not as powerful as a SC guy, or
- shoulder lock is not as powerful as a eagle craw guy,

you are doing something wrong there.

If we can use the "right" way of doing thing, and "wrong" way of doing thing, we will never have to argue about the term "internal" any more.

There is more than one right way I think, that is why not all boxers look the same for instance. I think internal is often just a way of describing one of those ways.

[KC Elbows]

We have to argue about the term internal, since we stopped being able to bag on USSD.

[bawang]

internal
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTA4OTkyNjg=.html

[Eric Olson]

I consider this footage as an example of "internal" work relating to throwing and countering.

http://youtu.be/uFXbuszijCM

That actually looks somewhat similar to the free-style push hands at my old Taiji school. You'll notice that Mifune mostly keeps a plumb-line to the ground. Even if he gets picked up he's straight up and down.

I don't think Taiji really does hip throws though. Not sure why not???

Also,one thing to note is that Taiji would not set up to throw but would set up to lock and injure. I think that is how Japanese Jujitsu probably was originally but remember that Judo is the sport derivation of Jujitsu meant not to injure.

Interesting how many arts all evolve apart and then find each other again.

EO

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think Taiji really does hip throws though. Not sure why not???

Some Taiji master said that to bend the head downward is against the Taiji principle. The funnest thing is if you throw a $100 bill in front of his feet, he will "bend".

Since the hip throw is the mother of all throws, it's a good testcase for people who believes that taiji is a throwing art and not a striking art.

[KC Elbows]

Some Taiji master said that to bend the head downward is against the Taiji principle. The funnest thing is if you throw a $100 bill in front of his feet, he will "bend".

Since the hip throw is the mother of all throws, it's a good testcase for people who believes that taiji is a throwing art and not a striking art.

Doesn't Wu style bend the head downward? Seems like I've seen some taiji that does.

[SPJ]

you do bend your back forward and downward

such as right before cross step single whip, xie xing dan bian

there are a lot throws in tai ji

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