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Thread: Do you turn on your toe or on your heel?

  1. #46
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    Power is generated from the ground by driving from the heel and also from the arch (Long Quan or sole of the foot). (Sorry JamesC but I have pushed cars also and I always have dug my heels in pushing forward). As the power comes up from the ground it is directed by the waist to desired strike (fist head foot etc etc).

    When you lift your heel up and pivot on the ball you are now using only torquing of waist (Ben Gash stated in CLF they lift the heel and pivot on the ball). This type of power uses more speed and whipping than a connection to the ground.

    Your analogy of the runner is comparing apples to oranges. It does not make sense, runners are not hitting anyone.

    Try this example: Lift up on both of balls of your feet and try and hit something... you will find your self knocked or pushed back. This is because there is no connection to the earth.

    Now connect one of your feet firmly by placing the whole foot on the ground. Now go up on just one ball and swing at something. You find that your balance is a bit better but this type of hit needs speed for it to be effective (This is where waist whipping power comes in).

    Now flatten out both you feet and hit something, now you will find you are fully balanced and if you keep your elbow in front of your body, you can actually drive from your leg (Heel) and hit with your leg muscles (leg muscles are bigger and stronger than arm muscles).

    I am not saying that raising up on the ball and using waist pivoting power does not work. It is different way to create power, I just do not agree with it.

    ginosifu

  2. #47
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    When you lift your heel up and pivot on the ball you are now using only torquing of waist (Ben Gash stated in CLF they lift the heel and pivot on the ball). This type of power uses more speed and whipping than a connection to the ground.
    WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG
    I also never said anything about lifting the heel.
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  3. #48
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    Ben Gash:

    I think that you are talking about 2 different ways to generate power. Mine, I drive with my foot flat on the ground with the emphasis pushing off the heel and arch area of my foot ( I will change my heel terminology for you guys). As the energy is directed up thru my legs (gluts and hams as you stated), I can direct the power to my strike with my waist. Where do you see that as wrong? It is different than the way you create power, but that's only what it is... a different way to generate power.

    ginosifu

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Gash View Post
    WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG
    I also never said anything about lifting the heel.
    when you pivot on the ball of your foot does the heel slide around? Maybe not pick it up in the literal sense but it moves around yes?

    ginosifu

  5. #50
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    I pivot on the heel 95% of the time.
    Yes, "Northwind" is my internet alias used for years that has lots to do with my main style, as well as other lil cool things - it just works. Wanna know my name? Ask me


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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    Power is generated from the ground by driving from the heel and also from the arch (Long Quan or sole of the foot). (Sorry JamesC but I have pushed cars also and I always have dug my heels in pushing forward). As the power comes up from the ground it is directed by the waist to desired strike (fist head foot etc etc).
    That is almost physically impossible, sorry. Unless of course you aren't pushing very hard and are pushing very slowly. Or you are wearing shoes that have a large padded heel on them.

    When you lift your heel up and pivot on the ball you are now using only torquing of waist (Ben Gash stated in CLF they lift the heel and pivot on the ball). This type of power uses more speed and whipping than a connection to the ground.
    That simply isn't true. As Mr. Gash stated previously, when you do use the ball of your foot you engage your entire posterior chain. The only time you can engage your posterior chain with your weight on your heels is after your thighs have passed parallel in a deep squat.

    Your analogy of the runner is comparing apples to oranges. It does not make sense, runners are not hitting anyone.
    Of course it makes sense. We aren't talking about doing squats or lifting something from the ground. We're talking about transferring all that energy forward, in much the same way as a runner. Again, Mr. Gash provided a similar analogy because it makes sense biomechanically. If it didn't work it wouldn't be used by San Shou, Muay Thai, and Boxing. Arguably the best striking arts in the world.

    Try this example: Lift up on both of balls of your feet and try and hit something... you will find your self knocked or pushed back. This is because there is no connection to the earth.
    I've done it plenty of times. The only reason you would be knocked back is if you are on the tips of your toes, and not on the balls of your feet. Do you think we're talking about prancing around like we're doing ballet? We're talking about engaging our body's built in springing mechanism. Yes, the same one that we use to run. The same one that evolution has allowed us to use for running after food and away from those that want to make us their food.

    Now connect one of your feet firmly by placing the whole foot on the ground. Now go up on just one ball and swing at something. You find that your balance is a bit better but this type of hit needs speed for it to be effective (This is where waist whipping power comes in).
    Again, you must think that we are prancing around or something. You can have both feet flat on the ground while still pivoting on the ball of your foot.

    Now flatten out both you feet and hit something, now you will find you are fully balanced and if you keep your elbow in front of your body, you can actually drive from your leg (Heel) and hit with your leg muscles (leg muscles are bigger and stronger than arm muscles).
    I'm not sure if you're intending to be condescending here or not, but i'll just assume you aren't for now.

    I'm well aware of the way in which the body works. Unfortunately, you CAN'T drive from your heel in a forward direction as effectively as you can if you transfer that force through the ball of the foot. If we could we wouldn't have had to evolve with ankles and calves.

    I am not saying that raising up on the ball and using waist pivoting power does not work. It is different way to create power, I just do not agree with it.

    ginosifu
    Well good. Because it does indeed work.
    It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    Ben Gash:

    I think that you are talking about 2 different ways to generate power. Mine, I drive with my foot flat on the ground with the emphasis pushing off the heel and arch area of my foot ( I will change my heel terminology for you guys). As the energy is directed up thru my legs (gluts and hams as you stated), I can direct the power to my strike with my waist. Where do you see that as wrong? It is different than the way you create power, but that's only what it is... a different way to generate power.

    ginosifu
    It's EXACTLY THE SAME way to generate power, as I said earlier it's true of most TCMA. What's wrong with using your heels is it's not particularly efficient, as it's not the way your body's meant to work. The biomechanical efficiency of the more naturalistic ball of foot motion is superior for speed, fluency and power genration.
    Also, if your weight is on your heels then you are less mobile and twice as likely to be knocked down or taken down.
    Last edited by Ben Gash; 04-22-2011 at 01:18 PM.
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  8. #53
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    We are talking about the transition from Horse stance to Front stance.

    Horse to Front Stance Transition*

    If we are talking about punching from a narrower sanda fighting stance* then you can and should pivot on the toes.

    *Neither video exactly the way I would do it.
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  9. #54
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    See, that first one just looks weak and unbalanced to me.
    "The man who stands for nothing is likely to fall for anything"
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    When you have a horse stance facing north, if you want to turn into a left side bow-arrow stance to the west, do you turn your right foot on your toe (ball of your foot) or do you turn your right foot on your heel?
    Long Thread. Just skimmed it. Been busy here.

    Right foot turns on ball, left foot on heel. This way feet are on two different 'tracks' in bow stance.

    For combat we usually turn on ball of foot, though in many situations (the above included) the ideal is to shift foot without any of it leaving ground (this I know was mentioned already)...much easier on some surfaces than others.

  11. #56
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    So this is better? Tan Tui
    - 三和拳

    "Civilize the mind but make savage the body" Mao Tse Tsung

    "You're certainly intelligent enough to know how to be a good person without the lead weights of religious dogma." Serpent

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  12. #57
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    I agree with Mr. Gash here.

    However, I have seen a lot of the "Shaolin" guys do their front stances with their rear foot turned on the ball of their foot. I would find a picture if I knew what it was called.
    It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShaolinDan View Post
    Long Thread. Just skimmed it. Been busy here.

    Right foot turns on ball, left foot on heel. This way feet are on two different 'tracks' in bow stance.

    For combat we usually turn on ball of foot, though in many situations (the above included) the ideal is to shift foot without any of it leaving ground (this I know was mentioned already)...much easier on some surfaces than others.
    Like this Dan? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaiUj...eature=related
    It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb

  14. #59
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    Well, he doesn't pivot the front foot at all mostly (toes angle out in horse, plus flexible ankles), our horse stance is toes straight forward, so the front foot must shift also.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanHeChuan View Post
    We are talking about the transition from Horse stance to Front stance.

    Horse to Front Stance Transition*
    That horse stance is too wide to start with. The proper horse stance width should be shoulder width puls 2 fists distance. If you start from the standard width horse stance, to turn on your toe will give you that extra distance for your wider than horse stance bow-arrow stance.

    Can someone please post a clip that turn on the heel? Whether it's easier to turn on the toe and hard to turn on the heel is not my concern. I'm more interesting in the combat effectiveness instead.

    If your opponent moves back and your bow-arrow stance cannot reach him and you have to change your bow-arrow stance into your monkey stance, how can you slide your back foot forward if you get stucked on your heel? Do you feel that you may have "mobility" problem by turning on your heel? In other words, how easy can you slide your back foot if you have to?

    http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3...nkeystance.jpg
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 04-22-2011 at 04:25 PM.

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