What level is your Wing Chun at?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Rank has little meaning, imho, outside of your own kwoon. Kind of like a Black Belt does not translate equally across the board. A BB in one system may be only a high ranking brown in another.

FWIW; While I trained in WT I was officially ranked as a Primary Level Technician after having passed all 12 student grade levels. I was trained to my third level but never tested past the Primary. Partly due to some of the requirements, such as having your own school and promoting students to instructor level as well. Ranking seemed more about promoting the system than in attaining skill, of course that is just my opinion. I never really had a great interest in teaching anyone else.

The one good thing about the ranking structure was that you could go to any other WT school in the world and the program would be pretty close for your rank or grade, with minior differences.

Having said that, just knowing the requirements for the rank did not necessarily equate with greater skill. I remember when I returned to the U.S. from Germany and one of the guys in AZ asked me about my primary instructor in Germany and what rank he was. I replied that the guy I trained with in Germany was a second level to which this guy replied that he was a third level. I told him that the guy in Germany would eat him for breakfast and this was confirmed after some of the German guys visited the U.S. The difference was more in how they trained than in what they knew.

Under Sifu Chow I never wore any of the rank he gave me and I think, after time, he gave up on me being ranked . I used to be the only guy on his site who was not a fully certified instructor but authorized to teach under his banner.

I used to like attending some of his classes without any rank and messing with some of the guys there. It was also funny to see how some of the other students would react to me when I am hardly ever there due to distance, etc and they think I am a newbie. A lot is revealed when I hang out with the senior guys, but it is fun to mess with people, part of my devilish nature I guess. Does not work so much now, but then again I have been in GA for almost four years now so I am sure a lot of people no longer know me.

[LoneTiger108]

It has been an eye-opener for me to see the various experiences and attitudes towards assessment in Wing Chun, but I think this last post from Dave nailed it for me:

"Rank has little meaning, imho, outside of your own kwoon"

Isn't that a shame? Especially when you consider that we are all one family under the name of Wing Chun...

[HumbleWCGuy]

It has been an eye-opener for me to see the various experiences and attitudes towards assessment in Wing Chun, but I think this last post from Dave nailed it for me:

"Rank has little meaning, imho, outside of your own kwoon"

Isn't that a shame? Especially when you consider that we are all one family under the name of Wing Chun...

Every place has different standards. There is no way to know what a rank means from one place to the next. Everyone has seen instructors who they wouldn't have promoted beyond white sash and so on. Sometimes it's because the practitioner is all around bad or because the areas of emphasis are too different to be promoted from one place to the next.

[bennyvt]

ranks are about money.
MY teacher only got the sifu papers from the association due to insurance stuff. Had a real hard time too as barry doesnt like the VTAA and is registered, he had to get Cliff Au yeung and David Peterson to vouche for him as they are members.
Barry still doesnt like the title sifu. I always have fum when I see him as some of senior guys and I call "sifu,sifu,sifu" like the old kung fu movies and he gives us the look, (the "if you don't stop I will kill you" look).
I actually invented ranking for the kids classes I did as the kids need it for motivation, confidence and it makes them feel good. In our class we just train.

[LoneTiger108]

There seems to be some of you that have 'ranking' systems, like Karateka, and I'm actually very interested in who decides the set-up for such things?

Most seem to come up with their own, and then there's the Leung Ting guys too who have a very structured way to progress through the art (IF you stay in WT school!) I have also seen grading books from the Moy Yat family

There is also mention of the VTAA, so can anyone give me an idea on how that process is done?? Can you become a certified instructor just on the word of another well known member?? Or is it just a financial exchange?! Isn't anyone in HK responsible for wuality control?? Touch hands with new members for example???

Has anyone here ever been supported by their local Chinese Embassy or Government Sport & Cultural body?? I read that Jim Fung in Austrailia had programs like this when he was alive, so are they still at work? And what do you think of such things??

Do you have a grading/assessment system that explains what level your are training at and what you are aiming for?

Who assesses you?

[anerlich]

Especially when you consider that we are all one family under the name of Wing Chun

No, we're not.

[anerlich]

Has anyone here ever been supported by their local Chinese Embassy or Government Sport & Cultural body?? I read that Jim Fung in Austrailia had programs like this when he was alive, so are they still at work? And what do you think of such things??

I can't see the Chinese embassy here giving a d*mn. There are other business and cultural organisations that do that sort of thing for some.

It's not especially difficult to get backing from Sport and Rec here. Jim Fung had good programs related to this, but he was hardly on his own. William Cheung and (I'm pretty sure) the WT organisation here run similar programs.

My own school has government sponsorship for a small number of fulltime students, as do many others, though you are expected to be studying for some sort of academic qualification as well.

To be honest, this was a bit of a racket and open to rorting in the beginning, not suggesting that any individual or org mentioned was involved in that.

Australia (to be more correct, Australian state governments) also have accredited training programs with certificates and diplomas for sports coaching, which you can hook into via martial arts. It is getting to a stage where you will need something like this plus police checks, first aid, etc. to be able to conduct classes on government premises like school halls, police youth clubs, etc. and especially where kids are involved (actually, this may already be in place - I haven't kept up as all my training and teaching for the last 20 odd years has been in private premises).

Most of these are run by private accredited training organisations rather than the goverment itself, like this:

http://www.acsd.com.au/martial-arts-industry.html

Both my instructors (WC and BJJ) have top level accreditation. I plan to take this up so I too am fully qualified when I stop full time IT work.

Not perfect perhaps, but a lot better than claims to be training "authentic" TCMA by persons who won't identify themselves or their instructor but still feel qualified to criticize those with actual legitimate qualifications.

[Vajramusti]

Isn't that a shame? Especially when you consider that we are all one family under the name of Wing Chun...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What????? We are a family????? Nah! That is...Stretching the term beyond recognition- given the extent
of dysfunction.

[GlennR]

I can't see the Chinese embassy here giving a d*mn. There are other business and cultural organisations that do that sort of thing for some.

It's not especially difficult to get backing from Sport and Rec here. Jim Fung had good programs related to this, but he was hardly on his own. My own school has government sponsorship for a small number of fulltime students, as do many others, though you are expected to be studying for some sort of academic qualification as well. To be honest, this was a bit of a racket and open to rorting, not suggesting that any individual mentioned was involved in that.

Australia (to be more correct, Australian state governments) also have accredited training programs with certificates and diplomas for sports coaching, which you can hook into via martial arts training and coaching. It is getting to a stage where you will need something like this plus police checks, first aid, etc. to be able to conduct classes on government premises like school halls, etc.

Most of these are run by private accredited training organisations rather than the goverment itself, like this:

http://www.acsd.com.au/martial-arts-industry.html

Both my instructors (WC and BJJ) have top level accreditation. I plan to take this up so I am fully qualified when I stop full time IT work.

Not perfect perhaps, but a lot better than claims to be training "authentic" TCMA by persons who won't identify themselves or their instructor but still feel qualified to criticize those with actual legitimate qualifications.

FWIW., i did my Level 1 & 2 NCAIS years (many years)ago and found it of some value

One thing i did like though, was that it weeded out the fringe dwelling charlatans that wouldnt dare risk exposing themselves to critique.
And theres where it has worth from a new students point of view.... if one had to choose between 2 schools to go to id recommmend the one with accreditation

GlennR

[anerlich]

The basic level stuff is OH&S, first aid, stuff like that that everyone teaching physical skills to others should know.

Also basic principles of modern sports training, injury prevention etc. which directly contradict some of the "ancient, authentic" practices.

Why anyone would want to bypass the demonstration of basic competency in such obvious areas escapes me. I wouldn't go to an unqualified doctor for medical treatment for a serious health issue, or send my kids (if I had any) to be taught by an unqualified school teacher without bona fides.

Some don't like the sporting model for MA, but IMO it's a better and healthier fit than the combination of religion, occult practice, and circus act that some seem to want to promote.

[Frost]

The basic level stuff is OH&S, first aid, stuff like that that everyone teaching physical skills to others should know.

Also basic principles of modern sports training, injury prevention etc. which directly contradict some of the "ancient, authentic" practices.

Why anyone would want to bypass the demonstration of basic competency in such obvious areas escapes me. I wouldn't go to an unqualified doctor for medical treatment for a serious health issue, or send my kids (if I had any) to be taught by an unqualified school teacher without bona fides.

Some don't like the sporting model for MA, but IMO it's a better and healthier fit than the combination of religion, occult practice, and circus act that some seem to want to promote.

post of the year maybe?

Sensible, coherent, logical and makes perfect sense.....And on the wing chun forum too who would have thought it?

[bennyvt]

thats why I did my diploma in fitness, then the year after I did it they started the dip in MA. The assocaitions are a bit dicy though. Faco was the big one and had some tight resrictions especially on morals and legal history considering the guy who ran it did an armed rob in newcastle years back. The dip in fitness was the only thing I could find except for coaching accreditation but could only do the coaching princibles as you to be do a specific sport and MA wasn't one of them. FACO got into trouble when it got all the PCYC's and government places saying that they were the only association and people had to be a part of them. I know that a fellow student that teaches TKD went through the TKD association. The problem was that it was a monopoly and not allow in Aus so they had to make offical statements in Blitz etc. That was when the dip in MA came up.

[anerlich]

Yeah Benny, unfortunately there isn't a great track record here. About 25-30 years ago there was a thing called the martial arts council, but that got canned when it came to light that certain individuals (including a certain WC Sifu) were rorting it and only accrediting their mates, siphoning off the funds, etc.

At least with the newer orgs you've got some reasonably honorable people involved like Tino Ceberano, John Taylor, etc.

A couple of grapplers I know got around the MAIA sh*tstorm by claiming to coach the sport of wrestling, rather than MA.

[LoneTiger108]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What????? We are a family????? Nah! That is...Stretching the term beyond recognition- given the extent
of dysfunction.

Okay Joy! I getchya

Maybe I should have used 'dysfunctional family'???

[LoneTiger108]

The basic level stuff is OH&S, first aid, stuff like that that everyone teaching physical skills to others should know.

Also basic principles of modern sports training, injury prevention etc. which directly contradict some of the "ancient, authentic" practices.

Why anyone would want to bypass the demonstration of basic competency in such obvious areas escapes me. I wouldn't go to an unqualified doctor for medical treatment for a serious health issue, or send my kids (if I had any) to be taught by an unqualified school teacher without bona fides.

Some don't like the sporting model for MA, but IMO it's a better and healthier fit than the combination of religion, occult practice, and circus act that some seem to want to promote.

This is exactly what I was hoping someone would point out! And in all fairness this was one of the reasons I, and my Kung Fu Bro, joined the BCCMA when we left our Sifu. Their Wushu sports model was already recognised and the basic level 2 Coaching Award was set up to satisfy certain criteria for NVQs, almost exactly as you suggest here.

It was very interesting doing the courses, meeting other Martial Artists that also wanted to teach well, and safetly! BUT there is also a problem with the BCCMA. Too much focus on the sports coaching models for fighters (Sanshou) and Form competitors (Taolu) has drawn them away from certain Traditions, like Lion Dance and language for example. And do you know how easy it is to pass a Level 2??!! Which means that some assessed to 'Sifu' or Coach levels haven't got the experience let alone skillset of a teacher who has trained for over 40 years! And most of them will refuse such 'silly' assessments too!!!

I've always been of the opinion that most, if not all Martial Arts will have elements of Art, Sport and Culture and so should be supported by governmanet at local and national levels. Not saying that government should be too involved in the assessment process, but they should know who's who, especially in the Chinese communities our beloved Wing Chun comes from!!