Why do you want to fight?

[LoneTiger108]

Honestly LoneTiger, your position on this thread has made me lose some respect for you. I fight to hone my skills and detect weaknesses which I cannot find on my own, if you are not doing the same then I would question your qualifications as a martial artist.

That's okay. I'm not here to gain anyones 'respect' or be idolized or make money from the easily led! Respect comes from being in the same room as a Martial Artist, not from random posts on a forum

I'm happy for you if fighting is how you assess your skills, I like to use other methods too and as for 'qualifications', pleeeeaaaazzzeee.

[LoneTiger108]

The canonical history has it that the pole was not introduced until WC had been going for a generation, so this argument is pretty dubious IMO.

And so is any unproven 'his-story'. If you haven't trained it, don't comment because you make yourself look and sound a little ignorant. Lee Shing was known for his weaponry expertise, and his own stories of our poles history make much more sense than anything else I have personally researched. Why is it with Wing Chun?? Answer me this and we can talk...

Some people like fighting. You may think that that makes them less evolved than you or something, but you might be wrong.

Not at all! In fact I think it takes a certain type of person to train to fight for competition. But I do not like the way that competition has become more 'gladiator' type barbarism in a cage. From over 500 students I have seen and trained with I have met possibly 4 that could be trained fighters. Everyone else simply wasn't interested, or couldn't take the training.

Most people end up finding other goals or benefits in the training besides the combative aspects, but just about anyone who takes it up likes the idea of being able to fight or at least defend themselves effectively. If they claim otherwise, they are fooling themselves but not anyone else.

If you want to push an agenda or criticise other's motivations, Spencer, just do it, rather than disguise it poorly as a questionnaire.

Of course, that is what I'm doing! Totally missed that one

[LoneTiger108]

Wing Chun was developed to fight the Manchu. It is a MARTIAL (war) art. I still don't believe that question was asked

And so why fight with your empty hands on the battlefield?? You of all people I thiought may have more to contribute here, especially considering the 'arm hacking' thread!!!

Where are your knoves, why do you practise the pole?? Are you telling me that after all your years the end objective of our treasured art is to fight with empty hands???!!!

[LoneTiger108]

Because that is the baseline of quality control. It is universally measurable. It ensures you are not training in an art of folklore by people with questionable skillsets while being falsely sold on gaining skill in "self defense", which is dangerous.

Sorry but you are mistaken imho. Wing Chun competitions are not universal. Fighting UFC style in a cage is universal. I've always thought the best place for Wing Chun fighting is in the officiallly sanctioned Sanda (Sanshou) arena, but that's just me.

With all that said, why is it exactly that you feel that fighting is NOT a vital part of your Wing Chun training?

Beacuse I've had the fight trained out of me by now! I no longer have the hunger to taste blood my friend, that died a while ago when people got seriously hurt.

How is it that you are able to determine whether or not what you are learning is viable in a threatening self defense situation?

Have you trained stamina of your Wing Chun sansau? Constantly applied under pressured attacks from numerous individuals? Let's say 108 times in one go? If not, why not? I think that assesses your skill in application more so than one on one but that's just my opinion.

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1093522]How do you measure skill? Who can slap box with the fastest hands? Who pushes someone back from a line better? Who "looks" better? Who can "turn a steering wheel" better in chi sau?[/QUIOTE]

That deserves no response whatsoever. Good luck at your own wheel turning masquerades.

[LoneTiger108]

Of course is fighting the primary goal of a martial art. Benefits like physical fitness, stress relieve, etc. are simply byproducts and can also be achieved by a wide range of other activities. The motivation for training a martial art varies from one person to another, but the goal is typically to learn to defend themselves, to learn how to fight.

Agreed to a point, but I'm asking why YOU want to fight?? When there are other skillsets to train that develop this ability.

And FWIW I think self defense and fighting ARE polar opposites. There is nothing in my self defence manual that justifies maiming or seriously injuring my attacker. A simple running technique normally works!!

[LoneTiger108]

So what is the goal of your wing chun? Seriously why are you training a martial art what do you hope to get out of it?

Okay. Last post of the day on this subject.

Initially, I wanted to be Bruce Lee! The I started Karate because of long term bullying, which my bruvva used to deal with. I was 9.

By the time I found my Wing Chun Sifu I was 18 and looking for that 'next level' in my development. Namely weaponry and cultural exchange. I still feel blessed to have learnt from Sifu Joseph Man, who I still see today. I'm now 36.

I don't hope to get anything out of my Martial Arts 'financially' unless the opportunity presents itself through demonstrations or seminars. Of course, the people that are interested tend to be from my direct kung fu family, as they too have wuestions about my teachers methods. I simply want to present what I know from my own home online, which is my Flystudio project, because I feel that not enough information is available about my Sigung Lee Shing and I rarely see certain training presented, like knife against pole as an example. And some of what I do see is a mishmash of bad habits and lack of understanding imho.

When I first learnt Wing Chun there was talk of rules, of culture, of respect, honour, loyalty and righteousness. All these virtues are within other Traditional Chinese Martial Arts and should be present in Wing Chun too. And I do not see it these days, especially when we are being targetted by wrestlers and kickboxers who are telling us how we should be fighting!

If we are to learn to fight, fight like a Wing Chun practitioner and prove that it works because I haven't even seen that yet and we all think we're great fighters!! Don't make me laugh... I've met better trained bricklayers

So if what you're training is NOT improving your fighting prowess and you really want to fight, have you not thought for a second about what other methods WITHIN Wing Chun will help?? Mind you, you will have to source a Sifu that will teach you for that purpose and like I've said, there are very few who will.

[trubblman]

There is also a reason you will never see a FMA be very effective in empty hand training as compared to systems that train, primerily empty hands and that is because armed doesn't translate that will to unarmed.

Its a fine theory but one that has been shown to be quite incorrect, in fact, going from empty hand to armed makes more sense than the reverse ( typically).
.

That's one of the most laughable comments I have ever heard on here. Maybe I am misreading this but if you know FMA who arent good fighters unarmed then you dont know that many. My experience with FMA people is that they tend to be very effective without weapons.

[bennyvt]

yip man wanted people to go and fight with Vt, it is well known that his better fighters got more attention

[trubblman]

It is well documented that the ultimate goal of most chinese martial arts was not fighting prowess 'per se'.

[couch]

So if what you're training is NOT improving your fighting prowess and you really want to fight, have you not thought for a second about what other methods WITHIN Wing Chun will help?? Mind you, you will have to source a Sifu that will teach you for that purpose and like I've said, there are very few who will.

Ah! You've discovered something.

Wing Chun training {often does not equal} ability to fight.

So where's the missing link? Not some Sifu. It's the training approach itself.

And then my free willed mind, after 17 years in the martial arts, doesn't believe that somebody else's "real" or "complete" Wing Chun has the answers. That's insanity: doing the same thing over and over trying to get the result I want.

It's in the actual training itself where things break down. And the only responsible for the outcome and the path to get there is me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

((Kanazawa was/is good. He also started doing taichi to become softer, if I recall correctly))

joy chaudhuri

Indeed, as did Oyama, Nakayama and many others.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's one of the most laughable comments I have ever heard on here. Maybe I am misreading this but if you know FMA who arent good fighters unarmed then you dont know that many. My experience with FMA people is that they tend to be very effective without weapons.

Yes, you did misunderstand.
Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been.
FMA that go directly from armed to unarmed are NOT as effective as fighters that start off stricly empty hand.
The "armed to unarmed" relation needs to be modified.
As for who I know that are FMA- my exposure has been to Pekiti-trisia, and the Inosanto line and the DBMA.
And while there is a "pig headness" on the PT line about empty hand work ( by some), the consensus from the people I have meet in the DBMA and Inosanto line is that while empty hand work does translate some FROM the armed work ( in particular the stick work), it is not AS effective as focusing primarily on empty hand, which is of course common sense.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is well documented that the ultimate goal of most chinese martial arts was not fighting prowess 'per se'.

Please, do tell about this "well documented" view.

[LoneTiger108]

yip man wanted people to go and fight with Vt, it is well known that his better fighters got more attention

And you of course heard that from the man himself?? Thought not.

[m1k3]

Agreed to a point, but I'm asking why YOU want to fight?? When there are other skillsets to train that develop this ability.

And FWIW I think self defense and fighting ARE polar opposites. There is nothing in my self defence manual that justifies maiming or seriously injuring my attacker. A simple running technique normally works!!

Point 2 first. I agree, self defense and fighting are polar opposites. Fighting is what happens when you self defense fails.

As for the maiming or seriously injuring your attacker, what makes you think you have the skills and ability to maim someone? That is hubris and is usually the sign of a person who doesn't fight/spar/roll as a part of their training. Humility is a major by product of competitive training because you learn how easy it is to lose. Your maiming skills are just a part of your imagination.

I want to fight and train to fight for a bunch of reasons.

That is why I train an art that allows me to roll and compete with effective techniques that can be applied safely to my opponent / training partner.

I roll because it is very satisfying win or lose.
I roll because in today's society it's good to have a place where you can test yourself physically against partners of different skill levels.
I roll because its fun and I roll because it helps keep the demons at bay.

People are the products of millions of years of evolution and just because we consider ourselves civilized it doesn't mean those primitive urges don't exist. Rolling gives me a way to satisfy those urges in a safe environment with like minded people.

I like rolling because it makes me feel superior to those people who don't train. (Not a good reason but it's true).

I roll for the sense of accomplishment and the sense of failure. Because it feels good to strive and overcome and because losing shows you where you need to improve and keeps your head from getting too big.

I roll because it hardens you up. Grappling is a physical intense exercise with the mental aspect of chess.

I roll because it gives me a good foundation for self defense. And no I don't buy into the BJJ is a complete martial art propaganda.

I roll because it is good to get primitive some times.


This was an honest answer and I hope that clears some things for you.