It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb
And where did you hear about the weapons leading the system? From the man himself? Thought not.
Don't play superiority games pretending that your lineage and knowledge of Wing Chun is more complete or something.
I know how to create a thread in order to try and get people to see my lineage-superior-non-fighting world view, too. I choose not to (and I choose to fight, too).
Down the lineage chain, many people have quoted Ip Man telling people not to believe him and test what he is teaching out for themselves. To me, that reeks of a Sifu promoting individualistic growth and self-reliance in his students.
An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory. Friedrich Engels
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
I disagree AND agree. YES it is totally down to the individual to take his/her training to a level that enables quality sparring/fighting as it is the student who has to turn up at the hall and train. BUT I think the role of the Sifu and kung fu brothers/sisters is just as important.
1. The Sifu will have a set curriculum for such competitive purposes (if he believes in competition!) and will be able to work on an individual basis with the student to create a competitive fighting machine. Again, I personally don't think you will find a Traditional Sifu who will do this, especially if he is of Chinese origin.
2. Without a constant stream of new and skilled training partners you will never achieve your best level or standard to compete.
Again, I personally would pferer to pass on students to a fight camp per se as I think they will develop more quickly for sports orientated comps there than they will doing SLT for 5 years.
Ti Fei
詠春國術
Tell me if it's part of may imagination if I have actually been there and done that? Do I have to have served in the Armed forces to have seriously hurt anyone? Or do I now need to produce a clip or photos??
Seriously too, I believe I am humble, and if I'm honest it was only a few occassions but enough to make me re-think my reasons for training Martial Arts and the importance of self defence (ie. do not hurt the attacker!!)
Thanks for actually answering the original question, and I for one appreciate the honesty.
Ti Fei
詠春國術
Wasn't my intention, but why shouldn't I??? Lee Shings Wing Chun is very very underestimated because he was not a commercial Sifu and my own Sifu learnt directly from him for over 35 years whilst working in his restaurants and developing charitable activities for Londons Chinese Community. So, I personally believe what I have seen IS more complete than others out there. I'm not saying superior, but I will say more complete!!
Yes it does, and it also 'reeks' of a Sifu who washes his hands of his teachings, he can always blame you for your own mistakes. But he didn't teach everyone in this manner, so I'm told. My point is, we can never know what he said because too many do not even believe his closest students or even his own sons words!! I'm trying to be realistic here.
And no, I wasn't told that empty hand originates from our weaponry by Ip Man either, but I do believe that my Sigung was taught that way, as it was taught to my Sifu who taught the same idea to me and every student he teaches. And actually across the board the Lee Shing family teach that way. It's just that some have not been as public as others.
I know it all sounds a bit 'lineage proud', but hell, shoot me for being loyal
Last edited by LoneTiger108; 05-04-2011 at 07:35 AM.
Ti Fei
詠春國術
I believe and agree with you sanjuro. Some styles though are more conducive to development of good stand-up empty hand skills than others. Some factors will include the preferred range and style of fighting and more importantly the training method used by the style.
Of course WC competitions are "not universal". Actually they are "not existent" throughout most of the populated world. sanda/sanshou is a decent arena.
You know they actually make gear whereby you can train without getting seriously injured. I know this is virtually unknown to the WC world, but just throwing it out there.Beacuse I've had the fight trained out of me by now! I no longer have the hunger to taste blood my friend, that died a while ago when people got seriously hurt.
Not following here. This sounds kind of weird. What do you mean by "trained stamina of your Wing Chun sansau?" English please.Have you trained stamina of your Wing Chun sansau? Constantly applied under pressured attacks from numerous individuals? Let's say 108 times in one go? If not, why not? I think that assesses your skill in application more so than one on one but that's just my opinion.
Are you talking about sparring sessions with multiple opponents? Sure. Hate to break this to you but a lot of times striking coaches who train fighters seem to find all sorts of diabolical ways to deplete your oxygen supply during sessions.
It deserves no response because you have no intelligent response? Seriously, outside of at least sparring with known quality opponents who can fight, how exactly is it that you measure quality in a fighting art?That deserves no response whatsoever. Good luck at your own wheel turning masquerades.
What you mention here had a massive impact on forming my earlier opinions of competitive fighting when I was younger, and I feel it is still very relevant today.
If you feel no/less pain sparring because of said pads etc are you actually training for real or creating bad habits?
Yes. Let's say the infamous tan da against 108 different attacks
That's exactly my point, why are we so hellbent on labeling Wing Chun as a fighting art? Why do we have to fight eachother to prove what we do will work well enough in a real situation?
You only know it's real when it's real. No competition can emulate that 'real-ness'
Ti Fei
詠春國術
True, but they get far closer than anything else.You only know it's real when it's real. No competition can emulate that 'real-ness'
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
I accept that 100% Always have.
But why?? Especially when most of the older, maybe more traditional Martial Arts say otherwise?
I was first taught Shotokan, and something I was told on the first day had a massive impression (again I was 9!) It was my first Sensei who said "If you want to be Bruce Lee, leave now because we don't teach you to fight others or your fellow students, we teach you to fight yourself"
My only Wing Chun Sifu said something very similar, using the analogy that Martial Arts is specifically for self development, conquering your own demons if you like through training, not fighting. Learning how to help the helpless etc etc
Looking over the thread, many people are talking of sparring scenarios and how it helps their art or makes them feel good/better/safer etc but I still view sparring as a light and protected (pads etc) activity. It isn't 'real' and never will be.
It's not the best way to judge your Wing Chun skill imhhhhho but is is ONE way, I'm not arguing that point. The best way is through the curriculum and that should (and commonly does) include weaponry. That is where we're all heading. The peak of the mountain imho. Not empty hand pattacake drills...
Ti Fei
詠春國術
So what exactly is that role if they don't train quality sparring / fighting in class?
This is simply handled in fighting schools. They have a "regular" class, and a "competition" class. Or if numbers are low and time slots are scarce, they split "regular" class into groups, and people spar with their same level skill.1. The Sifu will have a set curriculum for such competitive purposes (if he believes in competition!) and will be able to work on an individual basis with the student to create a competitive fighting machine. Again, I personally don't think you will find a Traditional Sifu who will do this, especially if he is of Chinese origin.
Without classes set up with a realistic goal there is nothing attracting new and skilled training partners.2. Without a constant stream of new and skilled training partners you will never achieve your best level or standard to compete.
Only elite level fighters have "fight camps". They need $$$ to bring in training partners and specific coaches including strength and conditioning, technique specialists, nutritionists. There are many, many resources being deployed to focus on one person.Again, I personally would pferer to pass on students to a fight camp per se as I think they will develop more quickly for sports orientated comps there than they will doing SLT for 5 years.
This is not the model for any amateur level competitor. The lower level competitors rise up out of regular classes to competition oriented classes. There you still have usually one resource as a trainer focused on many people.
Do you train Wing Chun??
From memory there were five areas of training that was considered mandatory.
1. Form
2. Equipment
3. Interaction
4. Weaponry
5. Language & literature
Sparring falls into the 'interactive' bracket which also includes the basics like Chisau, Looksau etc. So as you can see there is plenty to get on with, and everything 'should' benefit your overall performance ability, whether that be fighting in comps or demonstrating in front of The Queen! If not, something has gone wrong imho.
Now THAT'S what I'm talking about and this would be my approach if I was to start a career in coaching fighters (which I would never do!) But we have regular posters on here who claim to be the bees kness at fighting with their Wing Chun yet can not show any evidence that they take this approach. Actually, few can supply clips of themselves!
Which brings me to the question, why do you want to fight?
The answer imhhho should be FOR MONEY!!!!!!!
Ti Fei
詠春國術
I retired from competition when the demands where too much for me and my family.
For some, like Dale Franks, they compete will into their 100's
But before I retired I had competed in full contact formats of different types for almost 20 years ( one and off).
I truly do NOT think that you can develop your MA to THAT level without it.
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !