Ip Man and what he said

[Graham H]

Contrary to what many imply about Yip Mans different set's and his forgetting and changing things etc.
.

....an excuse that most would use knowing that they were not taught too much. It's easy to make things up and say they came direct from Yip Man when Yip Man was no longer around to say any different.

I believe 100% that Yip Man had one core system of Ving Tsun that he only taught to a very select few people. WSL and Yip Bo Ching being two of them. This was because they were athletic, willing fighters and intelligent people. Friends as well as students. The others (and there are many) maybe had attributes that didn't allow the knowledge to be cultivated and were probably not in Yip Man's favour. Prior to the Hong Kong days Ving Tsun was very cloak and dagger. Would it not be correct to assume that Yip Man was also cloak and dagger about his teachings and who he taught it to?? Maybe it was even the same with WSL which would explain all these differences in a system that has culminated in using the word "interpretation" to explain differences.

Yip Man would not have chosen to teach people different methods. He would have been selective on what he taught to who and when. If Yip Man had this attitude then maybe his closet students carried it on.

The fact is that with Ving Tsun you can teach all but not all will grasp it. It was the same in my Teacher's Teacher's school. It is the same in my Teacher's school and it is the same in my school.

Quality Ving Tsun is dependent on the intelligence of the person Teaching and practicing it. As WSL said....."When an intelligent person speaks he will only be understood by another intelligent person. If a foolish person speaks then he will only be understood by other fools!"

........the human factor!!!

GH

[Graham H]

First off, you have a pretty significant misunderstanding of how traditional Chinese martial arts were taught.

Second, WSL himself is quoted talking about how Ip Man forgot quite a few things intentionally in order to be a more natural fighter. He never planned on teaching.

Third, WSL himself also changed his own sets to suit his own needs as he progressed.

Fourth, a good teacher will always evolve and it is the responsibility of the students to evolve with what they learned. The only thing unintelligible here is to think otherwise.

About the only thing you said that is of any value is that it is up to the student and how they interpret it.

Oh I'm sorry! I forgot you have become a world authority on Ving Tsun. . Where did you copy that from??? Wikipdedia???

Will you be my Teacher??

GH

PS Funny how you can comment on my lineage when you don't even seem to have a grasp on your own! Chin up mate! It aint all bad!

PPS. Can you explain how you forget things intentionally?? He he he!

[Graham H]

No buddy, just love WC and a lot more open minded than you think. Just not a big fan of bigotry...

Oh yeah and that quote came from David Peterson's book on WSL....believe it or not, I own it... thought you probably read it too, my bad...

Well maybe you worded it wrong. I have read David's books. David is a friend of mine and he's a great guy.

This forum produces some great comedy. It would be better for people to forget the past. Who cares where Ving Tsun came from? Who cares about the past? Once you (gen) get engaged in what happened in the past then you are speculating at best. We simply cannot be sure.

Everybody is different and we find beauty in different things. One persons like will be another persons dislike. If we were all clones the world would be a boring place. Let's just enjoy the banter that politics bring and keep training hard and improving!!

Even the title of this thread is nonsense!

GH

[couch]

PPS. Can you explain how you forget things intentionally?? He he he!

You forget things intentionally by evolving the thought processes and therefore the actions themselves. ie: letting go

Some martial artists use their martial art to cross the river - then they leave it behind and continue on their path.

Learn the principle,
abide by the principle,
dissolve the principle (forget intentionally).

Best,
CTK

[Liddel]

First off, you have a pretty significant misunderstanding of how traditional Chinese martial arts were taught.

My Sifu Who was under Lok Yiu and GM Ip from late 50's to late 60's is of a similar opinion to Graham, based on his own first hand experience. Im curious what you mean by the above quote matt ?

People do forget that GM Ip left a lot of teaching to assistants and those assistants even had assistants. My Sifu Was Lok Yiu' assistant for many years and many that say they were taught by Lok Yiu actually were taught by my sifu and had dialougue with Lok Yiu and occasional hands on training, so while they are not wrong they are not totally correct based on how you look at it

Also my understanding of the mantra "it does not go out the door" as told to me by my sifu, is that in those days it didnt mean you had to hide your VT, it just meant that you didnt share theory and that if someone was looking at you practicing you didnt perform a form properly as to identify them as having looked and learnt and not being TAUGHT.

GM Ip was famous - many strangers wanted photos - many people asked him "show me some kung fu master Ip" many even payed just for groups of actions. Is it ok years later they state they "learnt kung fu from Ip Man" you cant say they didnt - but paying for a group of actions isnt being a student of VT in my book.

Second, WSL himself is quoted talking about how Ip Man forgot quite a few things intentionally in order to be a more natural fighter. He never planned on teaching.

You dont think that these issues would come up at training ? hey sifu how come Si hing has this different to me ?
My Sifu said there were many discussions with core students over tea and dinner with GM Ip where actions would be dicussed theory was talked about over a social setting. So at least for earlier students that had direct teaching for Gm Ip - there WAS continuity.

Third, WSL himself also changed his own sets to suit his own needs as he progressed.

Yes and WSL made it known what he changed and why... and his system is called WSL Ving Tsun which is different to individuals calling thier own interpritation Ip Man Ving Tsun when in fact there are major differences and or gaps....etc

Fourth, a good teacher will always evolve and it is the responsibility of the students to evolve with what they learned. The only thing unintelligible here is to think otherwise.

I totally agree, however there are parts one can't change without changing the core therefore the art itself IMO at this point we should agree you need to call it your VT or another name all together with no deception reagarding being Ip Man VT.

About the only thing you said that is of any value is that it is up to the student and how they interpret it.

If you're content with your style/art why be concerned so much if it came from the GM or not, this is my mindset. The unfortunate part of VT history is that there are those that seek to be associated with GM Ip when they were not, all for the sake of what...more paying students

[GlennR]

Well maybe you worded it wrong. I have read David's books. David is a friend of mine and he's a great guy.

This forum produces some great comedy. It would be better for people to forget the past. Who cares where Ving Tsun came from? Who cares about the past? Once you (gen) get engaged in what happened in the past then you are speculating at best. We simply cannot be sure.

Everybody is different and we find beauty in different things. One persons like will be another persons dislike. If we were all clones the world would be a boring place. Let's just enjoy the banter that politics bring and keep training hard and improving!!

Even the title of this thread is nonsense!

GH

Steady on Graham..... im agreeing with you for a change!

[Graham H]

...agree with Liddel......don't agree with Matt (as usual)......Glenn? It's ok for you to see sense for a change!

GH

[GlennR]

...agree with Liddel......don't agree with Matt (as usual)......Glenn? It's ok for you to see sense for a change!

GH

Actually, i think your head has been hit too many times in PB Chi-Sao death matches and your finally being reasonable.

Lets just hope it hasnt ruined your modelling career as well

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1101677I believe 100% that Yip Man had one core system of Ving Tsun that he only taught to a very select few people. WSL and Yip Bo Ching being two of them. This was because they were athletic, willing fighters and intelligent people. Friends as well as students. The others (and there are many) maybe had attributes that didn't allow the knowledge to be cultivated and were probably not in Yip Man's favour. Prior to the Hong Kong days Ving Tsun was very cloak and dagger. Would it not be correct to assume that Yip Man was also cloak and dagger about his teachings and who he taught it to?? Maybe it was even the same with WSL which would explain all these differences in a system that has culminated in using the word "interpretation" to explain differences.

Yip Man would not have chosen to teach people different methods. He would have been selective on what he taught to who and when. If Yip Man had this attitude then maybe his closet students carried it on.

The fact is that with Ving Tsun you can teach all but not all will grasp it. It was the same in my Teacher's Teacher's school. It is the same in my Teacher's school and it is the same in my school.

Quality Ving Tsun is dependent on the intelligence of the person Teaching and practicing it. As WSL said....."When an intelligent person speaks he will only be understood by another intelligent person. If a foolish person speaks then he will only be understood by other fools!"

........the human factor!!!

GH[/QUOTE]

Other YM students that got it??
Lok Yiu, TST, Leung Shung?

Id be interested in your opinion

[aelward]

You dont think that these issues would come up at training ? hey sifu how come Si hing has this different to me ?
My Sifu said there were many discussions with core students over tea and dinner with GM Ip where actions would be dicussed theory was talked about over a social setting. So at least for earlier students that had direct teaching for Gm Ip - there WAS continuity.



(

My Sifu Lo Man Kam corroborates that. In an interview with Inside Kung Fu back in the 90s, he said,

"At that time in Hong Kong, food was very cheap, 1 HK dollar could buy snacks for six people. So after class, all the students would get together and buy some rice soup or fruit and talk about what we had learned that day. Yip Man would always come with us, and answer any questions we had, or tell us where we could have done better, or give us some insight to ponder. So we students had a great sense of camaraderie at that time, and great respect for our teacher. "

[LoneTiger108]

....I believe 100% that Yip Man had one core system of Ving Tsun that he only taught to a very select few people.

Funny that, because this is what I have recently been researching

What will grab you (maybe!) is that when Ip Man was teaching Wing Chun that's exactly what he was doing. It wasn't defined as 'Ip Man' anything. Just Wing Chun. His sons are responsible for the branding, and that may have been the initial 'mistake' imho as it instantly caused separation.

The thing is, if we could all accept a 'Core' that was obviously taught to Ip Mans close students (and many other mainlanders who never met Ip Man too!) then this thread is meaningless because there would be NO LINEAGE madness in the first place.

We live in unfortunate times

[GlennR]

Funny that, because this is what I have recently been researching

What will grab you (maybe!) is that when Ip Man was teaching Wing Chun that's exactly what he was doing. It wasn't defined as 'Ip Man' anything. Just Wing Chun. His sons are responsible for the branding, and that may have been the initial 'mistake' imho as it instantly caused separation.

The thing is, if we could all accept a 'Core' that was obviously taught to Ip Mans close students (and many other mainlanders who never met Ip Man too!) then this thread is meaningless because there would be NO LINEAGE madness in the first place.

We live in unfortunate times

Yeh but , you agreed with me earlier YM was influence by to 2 teachers (and i bet there were others) so the WC he came up with was his own.
Just like TST, WSL, LY etc have their own.

Wether YM branded it his own or not...... it was his

Oh, and we live in very fortunate times.... imagine us not being able to crap on like we do

[kowloonboy]

...agree with Liddel......don't agree with Matt (as usual)

As an outsider, this sound bias.

[Graham H]

Actually, i think your head has been hit too many times in PB Chi-Sao death matches and your finally being reasonable.

Lets just hope it hasnt ruined your modelling career as well

....which implies that you think you are right and I am wrong so the feeling is mutual. We will live another day!!

GH

PS. The modelling career is going swimmingly!

[Graham H]

Other YM students that got it??
Lok Yiu, TST, Leung Shung?

Id be interested in your opinion

I haven't had enough contact with LS & LY lineage to pass judgement. I did have some meetings with one guy from the US that had been taught in the LY lineage but he was a little bit like a robot and didnt like the fact that he wasn't as good as he thought he was so he never returned. As usual too much sticky sticky to be effective.

As for TST I have met him and I don't like his way of thinking, his movement and I don't like party tricks!

GH