Ip Man and what he said

[Graham H]

The thing is, if we could all accept a 'Core' that was obviously taught to Ip Mans close students (and many other mainlanders who never met Ip Man too!) then this thread is meaningless because there would be NO LINEAGE madness in the first place.(

You are right. There shouldn't be! The core should remain the same. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. This can only happen through pure lack of knowledge or from passing on incorrect information.

Let's take Tan Sau as an example. To me it's a punching concept. To others it is a block. Two totally conflicting ideas. Can we put that down to "interpretation" or shall we just say somebody saw somebody practicing it once and put two and two together and came up with 11???

GH

[Graham H]

this sound bias.

...you be correct!!!

GH

[mawali]

Let's take Tan Sau as an example. To me it's a punching concept. To others it is a block. Two totally conflicting ideas. Can we put that down to "interpretation" or shall we just say somebody saw somebody practicing it once and put two and two together and came up with 11???

GH

It can simply be solved by the blocking faction vs the punching faction? who will be the last man standing? Isn't that the goal? Test it! It is not rocket science, methinks!

[CFT]

It can simply be solved by the blocking faction vs the punching faction? who will be the last man standing? Isn't that the goal? Test it! It is not rocket science, methinks!

You could do that, but since this is a discussion forum we can just apply some logic and talk on ...

Tan as a pure block lacks the directness and economy of motion that is so readily espoused by Wing Chun practitioners.

Tan as a strike that is also a block gives 2 outcomes from 1 action - simultaneous offence and defence (lin siu dai da).

[Graham H]

You could do that, but since this is a discussion forum we can just apply some logic and talk on ...

Tan as a pure block lacks the directness and economy of motion that is so readily espoused by Wing Chun practitioners.

Tan as a strike that is also a block gives 2 outcomes from 1 action - simultaneous offence and defence (lin siu dai da).

Perfect!

[trubblman]

You are right. There shouldn't be! The core should remain the same. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. This can only happen through pure lack of knowledge or from passing on incorrect information.

Let's take Tan Sau as an example. To me it's a punching concept. To others it is a block. Two totally conflicting ideas. Can we put that down to "interpretation" or shall we just say somebody saw somebody practicing it once and put two and two together and came up with 11???

GH

I didnt know they could be differentiated. It seems to me that anyone, who looks at the palm strikes and tan sau, can see that tan sau can turn into strike.

[Graham H]

I didnt know they could be differentiated. It seems to me that anyone, who looks at the palm strikes and tan sau, can see that tan sau can turn into strike.

It doesn't turn into one. It is one.

[trubblman]

It doesn't turn into one. It is one.

Whether you say it is or turns into, is just semantics. However I would have to disagree because to say it is one implies that a strike will always follow a tan sau. A strike can follow a tan sau or another block, a tan sau could transform into a bong sau or fook sau for instance. If it does it's not always a strike.

[couch]

Whether you say it is or turns into, is just semantics. However I would have to disagree because to say it is one implies that a strike will always follow a tan sau. A strike can follow a tan sau or another block, a tan sau could transform into a bong sau or fook sau for instance. If it does it's not always a strike.

It's not always a strike, but isn't that what the goal is? Everything that comes out is 'trying its hardest' to make it in life as a strike. If it gets stopped short of its goal, then Mr. Strike changes briefly to something else in order to facilitate another strike.

[Liddel]

I get what your saying Matt and i guess we are reffering to different instances. Im not refering to the "first generation students" its well documented who they were and what they learnt, i was talking about the hoardes of people who claim they learnt directly from Ip Man who didnt or those that rest on the lorales of "learning with Bruce lee" to somehow elevate thier VT.. etc

I also chimmed in because there are so many differences between students from later generations of Ip and many like to lay it all on Ip changing his teaching style etc when the differences they have are obviously thier own doing.

None of Ip Man's first generation students care about any of this with the exception of a few who to this day have serious ego problems. They all view each other as fellow students who went to a great school and learned from each other, and they respect whatever skill level each other achieved.

Yes but ask them about later generations and that changes. My Sifu found Gm Ip crying one day about the association and the path VT was taking in his later years. He lost control of things that were his, it outgrew him to some extent..
People started to treat it like a business and it became about money for some individuals.

Who are you referring to of a first generation student who calls their system the Ip Man system??? I can't think of any. They all use their own names as far as I know. If you're referring to them claiming they learned from Ip Man, I already addressed that above.

Confusion yes - first generation no problem - same page. BUT
If you've never encountered people TODAY that pay for lineage when they spent thier whole lives learning a seperate line of VT just to say they are decendents of IP Man.... COUNT YOURSELF LUCKY

I thought thats where we were in this thread, my bad.

Talking about the Tan -

It doesn't turn into one. It is one.

Ive always seen it as both, its live, it has inch power, centrifical (sp?) force. a good Tan whilst blocking will be sharp and penatrating. Same with Kev taking about people "wristing" rather than good elbow control, ive always use both with an emphasis on the elbow....do we have to chose one over the other ??? Total inclusion IMO is good VT. Thats how i break your bridge and catch the target at the same time, shoulder elbow wrist body unity. Yu Ma lik. (sp?)

Is this not getting off topic ? how does it relate to what Ip said ?

[Graham H]

Whether you say it is or turns into, is just semantics. However I would have to disagree because to say it is one implies that a strike will always follow a tan sau. A strike can follow a tan sau or another block, a tan sau could transform into a bong sau or fook sau for instance. If it does it's not always a strike.

No its not semantics!! If you think Tan is a block then that's fine! I don't! I used to but I don't anymore because I was given a different way of thinking that I feel is more logical.

Agree to disagree.

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Whether you say it is or turns into, is just semantics. However I would have to disagree because to say it is one implies that a strike will always follow a tan sau. A strike can follow a tan sau or another block, a tan sau could transform into a bong sau or fook sau for instance. If it does it's not always a strike.

I do wonder if Ip Man EVER used the word 'block'? Because it is not represented in any of the curriculums I have studied. In fact, I would go as far to say 'blocks' simply do not exist in Wing Chun. Parrying, yes, head on blocks, no.

And if I read anymore 'discussion' about whether tan, fook or bong 'strikes' I might just lose the will to live! These are core concepts that relate to everything in Wing Chun, not just the hands. I refer to them as the 'seeds' of WCK. Where everything grows

[lance]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1093686]

This has been thrown around a bit, what Ip Man really said, who he really trained, who he give the "real stuff" too, and blah, blah, blah...
I really don't pay attention to it or follow it that much, but I do have a question:

Ip Chun is Ip Man's son right? his heir right?
Doen't he have the "real" Ip Man WC? and doesn't he KNOW who his father trained and what his father said and so forth?
Wouldn't HE be the one with the "real history" ?---------------
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Bits and parts of it -yes.The whole picture? No. He and his brother Ip Ching can say and have said that their father trained with Leung Bik...and other things their father or did when they were young. But Ip Man left them in Foshan in 1950 and took his daughter who was to be married in Macau.
Ip Chun and Ip Ching were not around their father from 1950 to 1962. In 1962 Ip man was winding down his teaching.

joy chaudhuri

joy chaudhuni , are you the Sifu of the templewingchun ? Are you the sifu which is pictured in the middle of the rest of the other WC intructors ? The next time you connect with Ho Kam Ming Sifu , ask him if he was training with a Au Sifu
( stanley Au ) ? The reason why I ' m asking you is because your post seems to have the answers , that ' s why .

[lance]

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1100805]

Movies are just movies. They are made to entertain an audience. Documentaries are a better source if you're looking for facts.

Ok Phil , then tell about any documentries of Ip Man and the Wing Chun History then ? Educate me then ?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=lance;1102149][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1093686]

joy chaudhuni , are you the Sifu of the templewingchun ? Are you the sifu which is pictured in the middle of the rest of the other WC intructors ? The next time you connect with Ho Kam Ming Sifu , ask him if he was training with a Au Sifu
( stanley Au ) ? The reason why I ' m asking you is because your post seems to have the answers , that ' s why .
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Hi Lance- I am or try to be. Augustine Fong is my sifu.Ho Kam Ming is my sigung and he learned directly from Ip Man... hours and hours and years and years of private lessons. He goes back and forth.. Macao, HK, a township on the mainland and Canada.He is in his late 80s now. I have not seen him for several years. Is this the Au sifu who learned from WSL or a different Au? HKM sigung knows/knew lots and lots of wing chun folks.
I don't know about answers but I am committed to a long term wing chun path. I don't make my living from wc., but I do it daily and have done so since 1976.
Thx and good wishes,

joy chaudhuri
PS: I enjoy reading your comments on the forum.