Dit Da Jow questions

[LaterthanNever]

I just re-read your answer.


If boiling the constituents is not recommended...or at least only some of them..do you think that boiling them briefly(not unlike one would make tea) would be a viable option?

I'd be happy to buy some Jow from you. I only tried experimenting with some of the herbs which I grinded in a coffee grinder and then soaked them in some 151 Vodka and Sake.

I used just some of the standard ones: Hong Hua, Dan Shen, Mo Yao, Fu Ling, Fang Feng,etc.

I also put some of the ones from different formulas such as Liu Huang"(sulfur) which is a component of the "mantis" jow and one other..I think it might have been pumice stone from the "Wing Chun" formula.

Not to worry Dale..I don't have any plans to sell mine..so I won't be a compeptitive threat to your company

[Dale Dugas]

You are correct in that Liu Huang is sulfur unfortunately its not very good to use in any formulas.

It causes many problems.

I go out of my way to buy herbs that are not sulfured and are tested for pesticides, herbicides and insecticides.

Not something you want to use.

Many people are sulfur sensitive. It is also a major pollutant so its best to put it to bed. It has little to no functions outside open sore formulas.


Boiling your herbs is not an option, but you can steam them and many do that to open up the cell walls.

A well known Dit Da doctor here in Boston steams his herbs 12 times before adding them to his solvent.

He steams them and dries them 12 times.

I grind my herbs which does something similar.

[ntc]

Dale is accurate in his description on the Do's and Don'ts of preparation of the Jows. In China, we would use Rice Wine as the basis to soak the herbs. The blood invigorating property of Rice Wine is very strong, and it is especially because of this that it is used. We don't normally use vodka, and definitely not rubbing alcohol.

[Faruq]

Faruq,

IF you use jow daily then you will be exposing yourself to isopropyl alcohol that is way above the normal limits.

I have NEVER seen it used for massage lately.

We are taught when needling in acupuncture to use it sparingly.

It is not good for daily exposure at the levels used in Iron Palm training or injuries.

So then everclear's definitely out of the question then, lol. It's not even legal in my city.

[LaterthanNever]

"You are correct in that Liu Huang is sulfur unfortunately its not very good to use in any formulas."

Ooopsy Daisy!! Uh..I already added some(about 1 gram to about 2 gallons of vodka/sake)! Fortunately though, I have not applied any to my skin

"It causes many problems."

Would you be so kind as to list some please?



"I go out of my way to buy herbs that are not sulfured and are tested for pesticides, herbicides and insecticides."

How does one ensure that herbs don't contain any of the above? I mean..there is the language barrier insofar as..a fair # of proprietors (in Chinatowns) who run herbal shops/pharmacies do not understand english all that well(and I am NOT a racist..I'm merely relating what I have experienced when going to buy herbs). Do they know if the herbs they are selling me(or anyone for that matter) are sans herbicides??


"Many people are sulfur sensitive. It is also a major pollutant so its best to put it to bed. It has little to no functions outside open sore formulas."

Perhaps the form that the sulfur is in determines this? For instance...the trace mineral chromium is needed by the body for regulation of insulin in glucose metabolism..but only some forms(the trivalent form for instance)..some other forms are toxic. Same w/ sulfur. Eat eggs? sulfur is in the yolk in the form of sulfur containing amino acids. Same with garlic and some other foods too. Not trying to incite a debate..honest. It's just further inquiry..


I guess adding some other things such as scorpion(Quan Xie), centipede(Wu Gong), Bai She(white pit viper) and Tiu Be Chong(wingless ****roach) to the jow would also be a bad idea?

Another question for you Dale. I guess what is a challenge to process so to speak is..if for instance..using Liu Huang is bad..then why is it a constituent of the jow in the first place?(in this case..the mantis jow formula from plumdragonherbs.com)

Thanks again.

Best,
LTN

[LaterthanNever]

Incidentally...

Here is the recipe:

Northern Praying Mantis Bruise Dit Da Jow--Available in Half-Gallon Jars
Zi Wan (Aster Root) - 28 g
Chuan Wu (Aconite) - 28 g
Ban Xia (Pinellia) - 28 g
Long Gu (Dragon Bone) - 28+ g
Hua Jiao (*****ly Ash Pepper) - 28 g
Fu Hai Shi (Pumice) - 21 g
Tian Nan Xing (Arisaema) - 28 g
Gou Qi Zi (Lycium Fruit) - 28 g
Cao Wu (Wild Aconite) - 28 g
Liu Huang (Sulfur) - 14 g
Bai Bu (Stemona) - 28 g
Li Lu (Veratrum) - 21 g

[Dale Dugas]

Sulfur is an allergen to many people as well as being a pollutant to the environment. It reacts with other components to form acid rain.

It is used to artificially elongate the fresh appearance of herbs. Some of the nicest looking herbs are ruined by the application of sulfur. They do this to keep the bugs out as well as keep the colors bright.

The mantis jow formula you mention uses Sulfur as a component. According to Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine theory, sulfur is for itching skin and for killing parasites(hence they sulfur herbs to prevent insect infestation etc), and applied topically for scabies, ringworm and ulcers. It also tonifies Yang fire, and Ming Men.

There is no real use for it other than maybe to help with itching from the other herbs in the formula? As I mentioned before it is used in damp ulcerated skin lesions that are having trouble healing. There is very little help from this herb for this formula in my professional opinion.

Personally I would add She Chuang Zi to the formula to help guard against skin irritation from the Cao Wu, Chuan Wu and Li Lu which can be extremely caustic and poisonous.

Due to Sulfur being not only a pollutant and allergen, many practitioners have opted out of using any herbs from suppliers that do not test their herbs.

It might bother your skin and it might not. Test out the liniment and see if it bothers you. If you have an allergic reaction it could be from that or another allergen in your herbs. Or the combination of Cao Wu, Chuan Wu and Li Lu might be took much for your skin. All three of these herbs are quite potent. Which might not be a good thing from some people. Not all people can use certain formulas.

The only companies that regularly test their Chinese herbs are:

Mayway
Nu herbs
Kamwo
Spring Wind.

Spring wind not only tests for sulfur, but for heavy metals and pesticides, herbacides and other nasty things that can be present in low level, cheap herbs from unknown suppliers. They are the only herb supplier who tests for more of the above nasty compounds than others.

Their herbs are not available for general sale to the public. they only sell to practitioners.

I sell herbs only from the above companies. All of the herbs I use are sulfur free as well as being tested by the above companies.

I cannot vouch for anyone else, but if they are selling herbs not from those companies, they are of questionable quality. Most herbs from Chinatown shops are not tested, and I would avoid them at all costs as you have no idea what is in them as they are untested.

Adding the poisonous herbs, poisonous reptiles, insects are not a bad thing. It is not the same thing as having herbs full of sulfur. You have to be aware that the toxic herbs are toxic and you have to be very careful as to how much is used, as well as the people using the medicine.

You do not want to get scorpion or centipede venom into an open wound, as that could cause a reaction.

As long as your skin is intact and there are no open wounds, you should not have a problem.

As with anything that is this delicate and complex as Chinese Herbal Medicine, why would you purchase anything from a company owned by people who are not licensed and trained professionally as Chinese herbalists?

Laypeople are not trained professionally nor are they licensed to dispense any information on the usage and health benefits of Chinese herbs. Anyone doing that is practicing herbal medicine without a license.

I get many emails from all over the world about this and many other topics.

Let me know how I can be of service to you.

[LaterthanNever]

Sifu Dugas,

As always, thank you very much for your taking the time to answer in such detail. You have a very giving spirit and are a very appreciated member of the kung fu community.

Can I ask..does Ba Gua have a jow? All of those open palm strikes must need some type of way to soothe the trauma?


I mentioned to a friend of mine whose sifu studies w/ Grandmaster Lam Chun Fai in HK if his sifu would be willing to share his Hung Ga family jow recipe and it's funny..he said something to the effect of he might be willing to..but he might only for a deposit of 10,000 usd!

"As with anything that is this delicate and complex as Chinese Herbal Medicine, why would you purchase anything from a company owned by people who are not licensed and trained professionally as Chinese herbalists?"

Absolutely!! I did not want to give the impression that I would do otherwise. The individuals I mention do advertise that they are LA.c./DAOM practitioners(who also sell herbs ). What I meant was..I don't consider MYSELF to be an expert.

"Laypeople are not trained professionally nor are they licensed to dispense any information on the usage and health benefits of Chinese herbs. Anyone doing that is practicing herbal medicine without a license."

Certainly. I do not in any way intent to portray myself as such. Sorry if I gave that impression.

[Dale Dugas]

Brother,

Thank you for the kind words.

Traditionally there have been some liniments with links to Bagua schools but if you were injured in China you were taken to the local healer and they would use their own recipe for liniment.

Many schools have the exact same formula with a few different herbs added to make it "theirs"

My Baguazhang system has a family formula for Iron Palm training. The public version was released a few years ago in IKF magazine.

No one outside of the family has the closed door version.

All Kung Fu schools should use Dit Da Jow, but many do not. It is a great product that can help mitigate the negative aspects of hard training.

[LaterthanNever]

"Brother,

Thank you for the kind words."

Anytime. I call it as I see it.


"Traditionally there have been some liniments with links to Bagua schools but if you were injured in China you were taken to the local healer and they would use their own recipe for liniment."


It's funny..considering his Ph.D. is in Physics, Dr. Yang Jwing Ming has a pretty deep(considering his academic training is in another field) knowledge of herbs/aom. He mentions in a book of his the contrasting ways that eastern and western medicine treats bone breaks. I'd imagine you would probably find more logic in the Eastern way of treating those types of injuries? Someone told me that at least here in the states, the "dei da"(sp?) aspect of setting bones is not really allowed due to the legislative vernacular. I guess if that is so, it really does pay to be in China..

"Many schools have the exact same formula with a few different herbs added to make it "theirs""

Yeah..I've noticed that.

"My Baguazhang system has a family formula for Iron Palm training. The public version was released a few years ago in IKF magazine."

Can I ask what back issue that was? An acquaintence told me recently that IKF is folding and ceasing operations. Who knows..

"No one outside of the family has the closed door version."

I'm not suprised..

"All Kung Fu schools should use Dit Da Jow, but many do not. It is a great product that can help mitigate the negative aspects of hard training."

A friend of mine(who like you is also an acupuncturist/aom practitioner) mentioned once that it's also common for many schools to recommend different formulas to take internally(non dit da formulas) to toughen the internal workings of the body. Do you agree?

Gung Ge Faht Choy!

LTN

[Dale Dugas]

IKF is no more. It stopped publications a while back.

I make and sell both formulas.

I will be making some premade in a few weeks.

I do not think about toughening the inside of the body, I think of it as tonification and moving of blood and Qi, to ensure no stagnation which is common in hard training.

[kukulcan]

I have been using a Hung Ga iron palm formula during my iron palm training. I am brewing up a batch now using the two soak method and it should be ready by late July. I can share the recipe with you if you want, and even send you a bottle if you want to try it. Just PM me.

[Dale Dugas]

Kukulhan,

I am curious as to your using a Hung Gar formula as a Choy Lei Fuht practitioner.

Do you not have some of the formulas used in Choy Lei Fuht?

Many of the CLF dit da jow are cooked into black vinegar and they can stink and stain when used.

Let me know what recipe you have as I can help you tweak it and make it stronger.

[xiao yao]

I have found in the north of China, no kung fu people seem to be interested in dit da jow anymore.

My shifu's shifu used to use a kind for iron palm jow that involved using tiger bones. I've been trying to get the recipe (minus the bones) from my teacher, but he doesnt know it.

I would like to have a go at making my own jow, but dont know much about it. I havent found any premade ones in China, they mostly have mass produced Yunnan Baiyao or hong hua you.

Would anybody be kind enough to share a simple recipe so I could have a go.

[PlumDragon]

I have found in the north of China, no kung fu people seem to be interested in dit da jow anymore.

Agreed. They dont really seem to care and in some cases even seem to be purposely steer away from them. Fact is, all the purported "secret" formulas seem to have been publicly published at some time or another in China anyway. Maybe they steer away because they dont have any more carrots to dangle.

Would anybody be kind enough to share a simple recipe so I could have a go.

Heres 24 recipes (not all simple though):

http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/recipe.html

Im thinking about expanding that page some time in the next few months...