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Thread: Dit Da Jow questions

  1. #1
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    Making Jow without alcohol

    Does any one know of a way to make Jow without using liquor?
    Phil
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

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  2. #2
    Hmm, alcohol seems best suited to extract the oils form the herbs that go into the jow. Also, when using the jow, alcohol will evaporate which also has a cooling effect. I've heard of some people using vinegar instead, but personally I prefer to stay save and use what they have been using for ages =)

  3. #3
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    There are a variety of ways to make jow, and are several ways of preparing herbs in general.
    The 3 primary bases in dit da jow are alcohol, water, and oil with alcohol being by far the most popular. There are vinegar based recipes out there, but also, some single herbs are prepared in (or with) vinegar.

    Alcohol based dit da jow has warming properties, and is absorbed quickly. Dit da jow actaully means hit fall WINE, whereas, if you want to be picky, oil based liniments arent dit da jow at all...they are dit da YAO.

    Oil based dit da "yao" absorbs more slowly, and you can control this speed by what type of carrier oil is used. It usually uses a combination of oil extracts instead of whole herbs and so it is a bit easier to control the potency of the mixture and it also doesnt require the aging period. For these reasons it is more favorable for those who dont want to wait, or for amssage purposes (because you can dilute the mixture for whole-body use, plus it offers good lubrication).

    Water based liniments are not commonly used, because although water is an extremely good solvent, it doesnt have the moving properties, or the penetration power of alcohol or oil.

    It is also important to note that practically *every* dit da on the market uses a combination alcohol/water base for solvency issues and because most people have to use Vodka, which is 40% alcohol, 60% water--Although, I buy pharmaceutical grade ethanol as 95% pure alcohol that doesnt have all the flavoring crap in it that Vodka does, and mix it with pure water to make a mixture that is near the proportions above.



    Quote Originally Posted by Asmo
    Hmm, alcohol seems best suited to extract the oils form the herbs that go into the jow. Also, when using the jow, alcohol will evaporate which also has a cooling effect. I've heard of some people using vinegar instead, but personally I prefer to stay save and use what they have been using for ages =)
    Alcohol does NOT have a cooling effect, it just *feels* cool as it evaporates. Alcohol is an invigorator, and is classified as having a hot energy and sweet and bitter flavor.
    Last edited by PlumDragon; 02-27-2006 at 02:31 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlumDragon
    . . . Dit da jow actaully means hit fall WINE, whereas, if you want to be picky, oil based liniments arent dit da jow at all...they are dit da YAO. . . .
    Thank you PlumDragon. I make my own Jow. When I was in NYC I used to by Saam Jing Jow (Thrice distilled wine), "under the counter" in Chinatown. Now I use Vodka. I've had students that didn't want to use Jow make with loquor for religious reasons. That's why I asked. My Cantonese is pretty fair and Tit/Dit Da Jow is Iron Hit Wine.
    Phil
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
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  5. #5
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    Sorry, double-post.
    Last edited by PlumDragon; 02-27-2006 at 02:51 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond
    Thank you PlumDragon.
    Youre quite welcome! =)


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond
    I've had students that didn't want to use Jow make with loquor for religious reasons.
    Well oil-based jow is the way to go then, IMO. Its easy to make, but somewhat difficult to find. Im considering releasing an oil-based liniment in the future but I see little demand.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond
    My Cantonese is pretty fair and Tit/Dit Da Jow is Iron Hit Wine.
    There is debate over this, and really, it doesnt much matter either way--The reason I brought it up was to make a differentiation between the name of alcohol based liniments (jow, jiu, jau, etc) and oil based liniments (yao, yau, etc). As for spellings, "dit da jau" in Cantonese, and "die da jiu" Mandarin.
    EDIT: I believe tie3 is iron, and die1 is to fall.
    Last edited by PlumDragon; 02-27-2006 at 02:55 PM.

  7. #7
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    PlumDragon

    Since I don't know about oil based Jow I'd be interested in buying some from you for my students that would prefer oil based Jow. Let me know if you decide to make some.
    Phil
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

  8. #8
    I understood that alcohol being applied externally is cooling due to the vaporation, but internally has the warming/hot effect? (one of those cases where different application determines the properties) Will have to look back where I got this from though, crappy memory ...
    Last edited by Asmo; 02-28-2006 at 02:29 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmo
    I understood that alcohol being applied externally is cooling due to the vaporation, but internally has the warming/hot effect? (one of those cases where different application determines the properties) Will have to look back where I got this from though, crappy memory ...
    No; the substance is irrelevant in the phenomenon you are talking about. The same thing happens with water for example, and is due to the fact that molecules with more energetic nature (ie, more heat) have a higher probability of vaporizing and when they leave the surface of the skin they take the heat with them.

  10. #10
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    Oil Based

    Sifu makes a commercial product that is oil based, peppermint oil is the main ingredient. www.kungfuoil.com

    He says the oil based preperation is a premium recipe. I just use it, but don't get it near your eyes or other tender places...

    The oils are also good for burns, mosquito bites, or irritations. Some people are allergic to it though, so you have to be careful.

    FWIW

  11. #11
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    Right on folks, it's good to see this discussion on board again sans hecklers or trolls.

    PlumDragon - as always, I enjoy your concise but thorough treatment of the subject. I do have one question for you, though. How is your high grade ETOH produced? While in theory I absolutely agree with your reasoning, in practicality, I generally try to err in the direction of nature. Just as some extracted and concentrated (or synthetic) products may not be as effective (taking side effects into consideration) as their original counterpart, I feel an alcohol base distilled from grain may have side-products that unwittingly have beneficial side effects. Maybe there's some sort of phenol or something that will assist in penetration or adds to the lubricity of the base. You don't want it do evaporate too quickly, as the massage that it the application accompanies is as important as the jow. (I'm not trying to convince you to change your formula, though! )

    Yum Cha - I know some oils are very good for application over cuts and burns, but it seems like maybe unsterilized/uncooked oil preparations might harbor bacteria. Also, my Sifu always used to adivse keeping the jow out of open wounds, but there was always controversy as to exactly why. I guess I just wonder if this applies to oils as well...

    Phil - I just bought a new dit da yao that's probably available locally (though I'm not trying to detract from PlumD's future formulations ). It's called Wan Hua Oil or Die Da Wan Hua Oil. I tried it recently and it seemed to work pretty well. It's got more than just the usual menthol, it also uses some of the essentials found in many dit da formulae: hong hua (safflower), xue jie (dragon's blood resin), gu sui bu (drynaria rhizome) and several others. A net search ought to bring you some results... I really like this formula and it smells great (like kung fu colonge )

    peace

    herb ox

  12. #12
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    Thanks to all of you that have contributed to this thread. I've always wondered about making a bruise linament without alcohol. I'll be looking into to Yum Cha's, PlumD's, and Herb Ox's suggestions. And it is nice to have an intelligent and respectful thread.
    Phil
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

  13. #13
    Also, my Sifu always used to adivse keeping the jow out of open wounds, but there was always controversy as to exactly why.
    The explanation I heard most is that jow is too low in alcohol to kill of bacteria and might've become contaminated. It also sounds most logical too me... (and then there are jows with poisnious herbs ofcourse)
    Last edited by Asmo; 03-23-2006 at 08:41 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by herb ox
    PlumDragon - as always, I enjoy your concise but thorough treatment of the subject. I do have one question for you, though. How is your high grade ETOH produced? While in theory I absolutely agree with your reasoning, in practicality, I generally try to err in the direction of nature. Just as some extracted and concentrated (or synthetic) products may not be as effective (taking side effects into consideration) as their original counterpart, I feel an alcohol base distilled from grain may have side-products that unwittingly have beneficial side effects. Maybe there's some sort of phenol or something that will assist in penetration or adds to the lubricity of the base. You don't want it do evaporate too quickly, as the massage that it the application accompanies is as important as the jow. (I'm not trying to convince you to change your formula, though! )
    Thanks Herb ox, your comments are much appreciated!

    The ethanol I use is a pharmaceutical grade grain-ethanol made 100% naturally with grain the same way that Vodka is; Im with ya 100% on this topic and its part of my philosophy in making jow: I prefer completely natural and synergistic all the way, which is why I buy what I do. Vodka has additives in it for flavoring that arent natural, which I dont care to have in my jow; its less "pure" because of that flavoring and so I chose to spend a little more money to have a product that is devoid of flavorings and synthetic substances that are found in liquor from the liquor store.

    This is NOT to say that my prodct is 100% ethanol. It is a balanced mix of "hydrous ethanol", which makes it about 45 %...

    Hope that answers your questions?
    Last edited by PlumDragon; 03-23-2006 at 11:23 AM.

  15. #15
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    The jow we use can be made with either alcohol or vinegar, but with the vinegar you have to add another herb to it and cook it to get the same effect.

    Personally, I think the vinegar based jow works a little better for healing bruises, but they both do a good job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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