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Thread: There is no such thing as authentic Wing Chun

  1. #1

    There is no such thing as authentic Wing Chun

    Look deep into the Dna of Wing Chun kuen,


    1,

    There is no such thing as authentic Wing Chun.

    Every Wing Chun from every family or linear has some different packaging.

    Wing Chun is just the martial art of the Red Boat opera group.

    And there are different groups of Red Boat opera member practicing their art since day one.





    2, Wing Chun and Weng Chun,



    a,
    Wing Chun means Praise the Spring.



    Wing Chun means Praise or Recite the Play since Chun means Play as the play of Opera.

    As the name of the Dien Chun hall in the Shang Hai's Yui Garden, Dien Chun means the Hall of selecting Opera play. Dien Chun means select the Play. or select which play you like to watch.

    So to be exact in today's language. Wing Chun means Praise the Play.



    b,
    Weng Chun means eternal spring.

    Weng Chun is the name of a place in Fujian. Often the Weng Chun become the nick name of Fujian White Crane. Because the Founder of the White Crane reside in Weng Chun. Also, She was sometimes refer as Fong Weng Chun where her real name is Fong Chih-Niang.


    and there is a Weng Chun Kuen in the Red Boat which is different with the Weng Chun of the Fujian but having the same Weng Chun name.



    c,
    As we know, in the red boat era, there are different types of martial arts co exist in red boat. from CLF to Hung Gar to White Crane to Shao Lin Tai Tzu....southern Shao lin..etc.


    So, if one do a research on Wing Chun in the Red boat era, from evidents, one would find, Wing Chun is a martial art type core in SLT and further mix and evolve with other art ----such as White Crane, Hung Gar, CLF.....Southern Shao Lin....etc depend on which lineage of WCK.


    Weng Chun of Red boat will be a different art which is core in Hung Gar, CLF, Shao lin instead of SLT core.



    and, Some lineage of Wing Chun later evolve with some Weng Chun content and Weng Chun lineage evolve with Some Wing Chun content.

    That is what happen from the view of DNA.





    3, Siu Lin Tau


    Siu Lin Tau is the Core of Wing Chun Kuen which was brought into the Red Boat by the Yim / Leung family. This type of art is called Siu Lin Tau by the creator Miu Shun instead of Wing Chun kuen. and we know today, by DNA, Siu Lin Tau is an art which is the fusion of Fujian Crane and Emei snake.





    4, evolve and evolve and evolve.

    If one look at the Chan Wah's Siu Lin set, one will see how Ip Man evolve his art with YKS set.

    If one look at the distinct different between the Yik Kam SLT and the CLF set of Cho family, one will see how Cho family evolve their art.


    if one look at the Sup Yat Sau/ Sam Bai fut of Weng Chun and Peng Kuen of Weng Chun, one will see how Weng Chun evolve.

    If one look at the Koo Lo, YKS, Yik Kam SLT, one will see what Leung Jan did is to focus or Zoom in to the application teaching of Siu Lin Tau core.





    So, tell me what is the authentic Wing Chun?
    For me, there is NONE but all the Martial art of the Red Boat people.

    The Question is how far have what one learn evolve down in the stream?


    And different core trains different things, they conditions one's body different. IE: the Sup Yat Sao/ Weng Chun Kuen set will condition and evolve one's body different then the SLT. The CLF set of Cho family art will condition and evolve one's body different then the SLT.

    Thus, one cant lie on one's kung fu DNA type because the body of different kung fu type has been condition or evolve in a different way.


    It is a simple matter but God's know why we take decades and decades trap in our own delusion without seeing things which is right infront of our eyes clearly.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 05-06-2011 at 09:20 AM.

  2. #2
    Perhaps you need to take an alternate view on what constitutes "authentic".

    IMO, authenticity is highly individualized. Therefore I would say that every competent Wing Chun man is an authentic practitioner.

    Suki
    "From a psychological point of view, demons represent the universal equivalents of the dark, cruel, animal depths of the mind. When we as martial artists are preparing ourselves to overcome our fear of domination at the hands of an opponent, we must go deep within our inner being and allow the darkest parts of ourselves to be revealed. In order to battle the monsters in an abyss, we must sometimes unleash the demon within" http://darkwingchun.wordpress.com/

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wei Wu View Post
    Perhaps you need to take an alternate view on what constitutes "authentic".

    IMO, authenticity is highly individualized. Therefore I would say that every competent Wing Chun man is an authentic practitioner.

    Suki


    True. I agree.

  4. #4
    I agree that there may be a lot of authentic lineages and schools, but I also maintain that there is a lot of UNAUTHENTIC Wing Chun around as well, usually invented by cross trainers with dubious kung fu experience who have added bits and pieces to Wing Chun, in order to "improve" it, without having first understood it (core principles and concepts, included).

  5. #5
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    I am going to add my take on that. While I am in concurrence that it is difficult (perhaps impossible) to quantify authentic WC, however, you can still define the authenticiy of what you are teaching. Authenticity is valid when you have a set of governing rules by which you can certify / authenticate what you are trying to claim authenticity against. For example, while it may be hard to define authentic WC, it can be less difficult to define a certain branch of WC. Take me for instance.... I teach Ho Kam Ming WC, and I claim that to be authentic and based on the WC that I learned from Sifu Ho. I don't taint it at all. The basis is 100% from my own training, all the way down to methodology and drills. So, in that sense, I can claim authenticity to HKM WC as it was taught to me.
    The more you know, the more you find you don't know...

  6. #6
    Hendrik- I don't know what your point is on this thread. You have your "history".

    I do wing chun as I have learned from Augustine Fong, who learned from Ho Kam Ming who learned from IpMan. The principles are quite clear to me and consistent in the line that i have mentioned. Applications and effectiveness can vary with the practitioner.

    Consistent principles passed on carefully person to person makes for authenticity in a kung fu system - not labels or typed words. And as is reasonable people have to validate their understanding by their application.

    I listen to other folk's understandings.

    What's the big deal about this thread?

    joy chaudhuri

  7. #7
    Why do people talk about things like DNA w/r to WC?

    Is it like there's some amoeba out there someone hopes will crawl up on land thereby producing a higher life form?

  8. #8
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    Why do people talk about things like DNA w/r to WC?
    Certain individuals seem fond of latching onto inappropriate metaphors and then flogging them to death.

    They must think it makes them sound cooler or more mystic or something. But it never works.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
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  9. #9
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    I see it much like Western boxing. There are many schools out there, each of which sticks to various degrees to Ving Tsun concepts and follows the training methods preferred within their lineage. Degree of success of how each school's method translates into fighting varies largely.

    The big difference with Western boxing is the lack of sparring and of realistic fight oriented progressive training.

    Most schools cling to drills that lost their connection to actual fighting. The drills may look like being fighting related because they involve punches or blocks, but they don't translate into any useful real skill that works under pressure. When these schools venture out to sparring, it degenerates into either a chaotic mess (with no sense for balance, footwork, distance control, timing, punching power, etc.) or a harmless patting game (again with with no sense for balance, footwork, distance control, timing, punching power, etc.). Lots of people assume that they will be able to knock their opponent out based on their unrealistic training, and never realize that it takes actually a good amount of conditioning and punching training to have the tools to do so.

    To me, Ving Tsun is authentic when it keeps the focus of everything linked to fighting while following the core concepts of Ving Tsun.

  10. #10
    Wingchun is not about red boat opera, it is about what "Ng Mui Si Tai", the original creator of wingchun, she passed it onto her student Yim Wing Chun and Yim Wingchun taught it to her hudsband who is a businessman, and the businessman Leung Bok Kam later named the style after his wife's name and there is the start of wingchun kuen. Red boat opera is much later....
    (Mak Jo Si, Tin Yat Lineage Taoism) A Taoism Master with 16yrs+ of experience in Taoism and as a career. Exorcism is my profession.

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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    Hendrik- I don't know what your point is on this thread. You have your "history".

    I do wing chun as I have learned from Augustine Fong, who learned from Ho Kam Ming who learned from IpMan. The principles are quite clear to me and consistent in the line that i have mentioned. Applications and effectiveness can vary with the practitioner.

    Consistent principles passed on carefully person to person makes for authenticity in a kung fu system - not labels or typed words. And as is reasonable people have to validate their understanding by their application.

    I listen to other folk's understandings.

    What's the big deal about this thread?

    joy chaudhuri
    I'm a bit jealous, I would love to train with master Fong for 1 time.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by CYMac View Post
    Wingchun is not about red boat opera, it is about what "Ng Mui Si Tai", the original creator of wingchun, she passed it onto her student Yim Wing Chun and Yim Wingchun taught it to her hudsband who is a businessman, and the businessman Leung Bok Kam later named the style after his wife's name and there is the start of wingchun kuen. Red boat opera is much later....


    1, The art Yim / Leong brought to the Red Boat is called Siu Lin Tau. ( not the siu lin tau set today. SLT/SNT today is just a partial and evolution short form. )

    2, This art is not a creation of Ng Mui but a creation of Miu Shun based on Crane and Snake.

    3, Wing Chun Kuen is an art of the Red Boat Opera people core on Siu Lin Tau and other art such as the pole....etc. depend on which lineage one is in.



    Take the following three older Wing Chun lineages which could be tracked solid to the Red Boat.


    This is the line from LJ to Chan Wah;
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltGyg5GA1h8



    This is YKS line
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVhRMzywe6Y

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGrLe...eature=related



    This is one of Cho line
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLCTu...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TmrX...eature=related


    All of these lineages have the SLT core but other stuffs such as White Crane, CLF.. shao lin.etc. depend on the lineage.


    So, there is no such thing as authenticity because Wing Chun means different things to different lineages.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 05-07-2011 at 04:00 PM.

  13. #13
    So, there is no such thing as authenticity because Wing Chun means different things to different lineages. (Hendrik)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That is a strange meaning of authenticity.

    joy chaudhuri

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    So, there is no such thing as authenticity because Wing Chun means different things to different lineages. (Hendrik)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That is a strange meaning of authenticity.

    joy chaudhuri


    I think it might be better to say there is no ONE authentic WCK after the first generation of WCK in the Red Boat era.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    I think it might be better to say there is no ONE authentic WCK after the first generation of WCK in the Red Boat era.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You are entitled to your opinion.

    Mine is that those who taught Leung Jan (Leung Yee Tai and Wong Wah Bo) helped provide the basis of good wing chun via Leung Jan' synthesis. But the art keeps evolving--progressing in some hands, regressing in others. .. too hard or too soft.But I don't lecture anyone.

    joy chaudhuri

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