Scholar Warrior
LoneTiger --> Thank you... I appreciate the complement.Originally Posted by LoneTiger108
I for one am glad you did put in your two cents
Possibly one of the most sound and balanced views concerning TCMA/Western comparison I have seen in a very long time, so thank you for contributing.
The more you know, the more you find you don't know...
Scholar Warrior
Thank you, Joy... you are correct.
The more you know, the more you find you don't know...
Scholar Warrior
Hendrik: I am replying to the statements in your post (in quotes)
"I understood your view as to make friend with everyone. "
--> You are very wrong about this. Please don't try to feel you know or need to know what people are thinking, cause you do not ! In this case, my intent is not to make friends with everyone; this is NOT possible. There will always be those who agree with you and those that don't. And that is just how life is... you can't go about trying to please everyone... be yourself, and those who feel you have something to offer, whether it is friendship, WCK, enlightment, whatever... they will automatically interface with you. My intent is very simple and with no hidden intentions --> just to speak my mind and offer my opinion, and the fact that not all Chinese born in China and raised very similarly with you share your opinion. That's all.
"If what was brought up is an opinion/perspective you are right and I am totally in agreement with you. but what was brought up if it is a fact then one has to face it instead of shooting the messenger. "
--> if you are implying via this that you are the messenger and I am shooting you, I am confident that most people reading this post will be scratching their heads and wondering how on earth did you arrive at that conclusion. All I am trying to do with my post is to let you know that, regardless of whether you intended to or not, from a third person point of view your posts come across as though you are trying to force your beliefs down other peoples' throat. And with that can exhibit to others a potentially false sense of arrogance and/or condescendence. And also, what you construe as a "fact" may be a fact to you in every sense of the word, while others may not consider it so. Accept it and move on. Not everyone agreed with Einstein's theory of relativity when he first formulated it; he said it was a fact, while others (in fact, most others) did not. Even to this day, there is still an ongoing debate towards the validity of that theory as well as the breadth and depth to which that theory may be validated.
"May be you want to do a research and find out is that two doors my opinion/perspective/approach or it is a mile stone of advance TCMA, that way whether I am imposed my approach to others or I am just a messager relay what is going on is clear by itself."--> the "two door" is a principle (or whatever you choose to call it) that it appears you either inherited from your teacher or gained from your own research. And that is great for you. I have no doubts that others have found their own version of "two door" that enlightens them. Why insist on forcing your "two door" thinking on others as the only way there is? Like the Chinese saying goes "every tall mountain will have one mountain taller than itself".... this is an expression you should know, I am sure.
"also, up to now, you have not brought up an alternative of the two doors, but focus on how you feel I am not respecting others. That for me is off mark but i accept your view as it is. "
--> Thank you for accepting my view as it is. Again, my intent is not to attack you, but just to make you aware of how your posts may be coming across to others. How often do you hear that one does not realize a problem exists until another person points out the problem? - It is a common occurence in life - that's just the way it is. This is why people say that "true friends will not hesitate to tell another friend that they have done something wrong, even at the risk of their friendship". Now, I hardly know you and I suppose since you claim a background of WCK that you and I are therefore considered WC cousins. But I do know that you and I share very close cultural / martial / spiritual / philosophical / medical upbringings. And so, with this in mind, I am making my comments. And as to alternative of the two doors, yes I have my own version. But it is not represented as two doors, but as a holistic combination of mind, body, and soul. The three have to holistically function well and in harmony, otherwise one would experience inadequacies, whether in health, life, martial arts, or other aspects in this world. Mind, body, and soul in harmony does require a smooth flow of Qi, and therefore blood. Just as in western, the good fighter needs to be aggressive, cunning, but at the same time relaxed and control of their mind. And this, again requires good blood flow circulating to the brain. You refer to this cumulative process as part of your "two-door" principle; I have mine in a different way, as do others here on the forum. Without the right mind / body / spirit, the WC fighter cannot be a great fighter. As an example, in the western world, if the person does not have the fighting courage (mind), physical stamina/conditioning (body), or the will / confidence to win (spirit), it is highly doubtful that the person would be a good fighter, regardless of whether WC is used or not. In the eastern world, the mind / body / spirit incorporates much more than this, and this is almost always interwoven within the kung fu system itself and the way it is taught. Differences lie between the east and the west, but still represented as mind/body/spirit. This is the path from which I have come, and you can see this throughout the Tao, the I Ching, and the Dao De Ching, not to mention the teachings of Confuscius; I did not make this up. And in any case, this is something I would never want to force someone else to buy into. If they want to discuss it, I would be happy to; if they don't that is not a problem at all and I respect that.
Anyways, enough said. I apologize to the other readers here for the wordiness of this post, which was not my original intent. I just feel that the direction of the discussion towards things such as implied by Hendrik's "two-door" path bears nothing towards whether a certain WC system is authentic or not. Rather, it should be addressed in a thread that explores the different ways in which a student can be taught WC beyond the basic forms and strength conditioning, and also explore differences between eastern and western approaches to training. A more appropriate title to this discussion would have been "The Tao of WC Training" or something like that... or maybe even a thread under Tai Chi or TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) as suggested by someone earlier in the thread.
"as you suggest, I do move on with those who is not in the same wave length.
I might disagree but I never against. I argue with reasons and data with those who is in the same wave length not to win the argument but toward clarify the subject."
--> Do you really move on? And maybe you do... but from an outsider's perspective it comes across as though you are constantly insisting that unless someone went through the "two-door" they really have not, in your words, learned real TCMA. I hope you are able to see what I am trying to bring to your attention.
Peace/
Last edited by ntc; 05-16-2011 at 09:38 PM.
The more you know, the more you find you don't know...
詠春係一個家庭
Keith Mazza teaches at a Chinese school in NJ on Sundays. I used to help him out there so I know the attitudes of some of the Chinese parents. Anyway, recently while he was teaching he overheard some Chinese men speaking about how Keith couldn't really know Chinese kung fu because he wasn't Chinese. They didn't know that Keith speaks Mandarin. Well, he went over to them and spoke in Mandarin. One of the men did Tai Chi and another one did Wing Chun. Keith offered them to test him. He did push hands with the Tai Chi guy and chi sao and some techniques with the WC guy. Now they want their kids to join his school. I encountered the Chinese are better that then Gwailo thing for years. I use to think that if you're Chinese your kung fu has to be good. I don't anymore. Theory, history, impressive forms, etc., are nice but if you can't bang then those things mean nothing to me personally.
Scholar Warrior
YouKnowWho --> you put out a great example, and I am definitely in agreement with you on this. Whether muslim, Christian, buddhist, etc. etc. etc., the ultimate goal is to become a good human being. The religion merely represents a definition of what a good human being is and the corresponding way to attain it. The individual will choose the path/religion that suits him/her best, and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. There is no one all-encompassing definitively true/right way. If you get to where you want to be and end up being a good person, then you have chosen the right religion, the right path, and therefore the right way. What works for one may not necessarily work for another.
You picked a wonderful example... thank you.
Last edited by ntc; 05-17-2011 at 04:55 AM.
The more you know, the more you find you don't know...
Registered User
Thanks!
Someone on this forum once said that I had tried to shove my opinion into other's throat. Today, I try very hard not to do that anymore.
Sometime it's easy to say but hard to do. When KF attacked on TCMA, I just had no choice but to fight back.
Even Meng-Zi once said, "I don't like to argue, but sometime I just don't have choice." When he said that, he was arguing.
It's very common that people don't agree. Even Confucius said, "When my way cannot be accepted, I'll take a raffle and float on the sea". Confusius also said, "If nobody appreciate my idea, it's like a jade that hides in the closet, someday people will detect my value".
We can't compare ourselves to Confusius or Meng-Zi. We are all just average human being. So don't expect too much out of ourselves.
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-17-2011 at 12:36 AM.
Scholar Warrior
Phil, I hear you, and you are very correct. I myself was very guilty of making a Gwailo judgement many years ago. One of my early teachers of Chinese Medicine was a caucasian, and I remember thinking "what does he know about Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine". I was especially skeptical as I had already been trained in Chinese Medicine in China, but had to do some US training to get licensed here. Well, to make a long story short he proved me very wrong and turned out to be a wonderful teacher and Acupuncturist. To this day I have a lot of respect for him; he and I stay in touch and he remains one of the top acupuncturists in the US and we remain good friends.
So, your point is well taken that the skin color does not necessarily nor always reflect the quality. And I also believe that the martial art itself does not reflect its effectiveness or its deadliness, but rather, the martial artist is the one who is either able or not able to bring out the value/quality of the art.
The more you know, the more you find you don't know...
Registered User
I am not sure what you mean above and I am curious to your meaning and what you are implying.
Are you saying that:
1. the Cho family's CLF set, of which they have many not just one, will condition the body differently than the Cho family 108 SLT as taught to them by Yik Kam?
2. the Cho family no longer practise the SLT taught as to them by Yik Kam but have evolved it into a CLF type set?
GM of Hadaka Korosu
Spot on Phil.
Many people don't realize that some westerns are the actual lineage holders of many TCMA and that those westerns simply keep to themselves and don't ask or seek the limelight.
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Glorified TCMAist
IMHO-training 小周天(Xiao Chou Tien) or 大周天(Da Chou Tien) brings other benefits besides "internal cultivation," and hei development.
In my limited experience, I have found it develops intent, body awareness, including awareness of structure, alignment, and breath, all leading to power generation and positional alignments for combative ability. So, without shrouding it in mysticism, it becomes a relavent practice to enhance martial skill.
a funny side note about the discrimination of gwailos teaching TCMA;
I was teaching for years at a Chinese Association. One year, a famous Chinese Martial Artist and actor (he was in CTHD)does a demo during our Chinese New Year show, and Lo and Behold, the next semester, they replaced me with him as Martial Arts instructor.
(wait, it gets better)
The following year, they call me up and say they want me to return.
(wait, it gets better still)
So, I'm teaching my class, and one of the students says he already learned the form I was teaching from the Chinese instructor. I find that odd, since it was a basic set of my own creation.
It turns out that one of the students who learned the set from me when I taught previously at the association, taught it to the "Chinese Master," who then started teaching it, at the school, as his own.
Funnier still, he apparently videotaped one of my students performing dan-dao, and then taught the set to one of his private students, who performed it at Chinese New Year show-very poorly.
In typical gwailo fashion, I then had one of my students bang out the same set.
(Horrors! You make him lose face! Gwailos have no understanding of proper Chinese culture and etiquette! Barbarian!-Funny how some Chinese people can take protocal and twist it to their own means, but when a gwailo does it, it's somehow wrong...oh well, what do I know? I'm just a gwailo.)
Last edited by TenTigers; 05-17-2011 at 08:52 AM.
"My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"
"I will not be part of the generation
that killed Kung-Fu."
....step.
Registered User
There is no implication.
That is a set create by the ancestor of Cho family with the name "CLF". many has learn this set in the early era of Penang Malaysia..
The set is a hybrid evolution of WCK and CLF. Thus, the conditioning of the body, structure, dynamic of this set is no longer the same with the Yik Kam or 108 long set SLT or the teaching of Yim (wing chun) family. it has evolve with the Cho family signature.
hope this help.
Last edited by Hendrik; 05-17-2011 at 09:03 AM.
Registered User
IMHO-training 小周天(Xiao Chou Tien) or 大周天(Da Chou Tien) brings other benefits besides "internal cultivation," and hei development.
In my limited experience, I have found it develops intent, body awareness, including awareness of structure, alignment, and breath, all leading to power generation and positional alignments for combative ability.
So, without shrouding it in mysticism, it becomes a relavent practice to enhance martial skill.
True.
In today's word,
The first basic Xiao Chou Tien result/benifit , is to have the spine lively (du medirian cultivation) and deeper efficient/effective low abdorment breathing (Ren cultivation) , then the internal organs....etc.
The first order Da Chou Tien result/benifit, is to have the whole body 's structure and flow lively on top of Xiao Chou Tien.
Thus, a born healthy and strong fighter, is naturally having the above basic characteristic whether they do Da/ Xiao Chou Tien or not.
One practice the Da/xiao Chou tien is for repair and maintainance/ strengtening/balancing of the body because body might not naturally born healthy and balance, there are aging, there are sick, ......
The issue we face today is Chinese or Non Chinese, most have no proper understanding of what it is and thus end up with a mess of speculation which side track off mark.
Notice I have not even use the Qi term above. No need to. Why? because Qi is a pre-physical energy flow of the body. one manages or conditioning the physical via pre-physical energy flow. A massage is a pre-physical conditioning. one deal with the pre-physical before the physical manifestation. or one transform the physical with the Pre-physical flow. It is a totally causal system nothing clear and solid and produce result right away.
a funny side note about the discrimination of gwailos teaching TCMA;
I was teaching for years at a Chinese Association. One year, a famous Chinese Martial Artist and actor (he was in CTHD)does a demo during our Chinese New Year show, and Lo and Behold, the next semester, they replaced me with him as Martial Arts instructor..............
That is human isnt it?
Thus, my view is focus on the topic; who know the subject knows it disregards of what race or nationality.
Last edited by Hendrik; 05-17-2011 at 09:28 AM.
Registered User
Thanks Hendrik.
To clarify, the Cho family still maintain the pure SLT 108 set as passed down by Yik Kam, in addition to many other forms.
Registered User
Fongsung,
There is nothing wrong with evolution, if fact the Cho's CLF hybid evolution has its beauty in it. doing it properly, it be able to expand the dynamic horizon of SLT 108 set.
Also, as in any TCMA, set or form is secondary. Form and set evolve with time.
The important key is does one has the process of attain the Kung Fu which the ancestor could attain. that is the soul of system.
When form is missed or lost, that can always be created and design provided the soul of ths sytem is still there.
Last edited by Hendrik; 05-17-2011 at 09:39 AM.
Registered User
Again you are being ambiguous.
I am stating that besides any other set Cho Family in China & SE Asia maintain the pure SLT 108 as taught to them from Yik Kam. Since then it has been passed down 3 bloodline generations from grandfather to father to son in China, unchanged.
Are you disagreeing with this statement?
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