There is no such thing as authentic Wing Chun

[FongSung]

The important key is does one has the process of attain the Kung Fu which the ancestor could attain. that is the soul of system.

When form is missed or lost, that can always be created and design provided the soul of ths sytem is still there.

Like I said before this is not an issue as nothing has been lost. Unless someone taught you what the Cho ancestors did not pass on to there own son's and family?

[Hendrik]

Again you are being ambiguous.

I am stating that besides any other set Cho Family in China & SE Asia maintain the pure SLT 108 as taught to them from Yik Kam.

Since then it has been passed down 3 bloodline generations from grandfather to father to son in China, unchanged.

Are you disagreeing with this statement?

1,

being ambiguous.

please read my post as it is instead of read what is not there.



2,

Pure? unchanged? agree and disagree?

Let's take a look at what is the facts and let the facts answer your question by itself.


Take a small present day's sample youtube from Cho family China and the known Cho family senior in Penang Malaysia ( who is the oldest in Cho family tree alive today learning his set directly from the second generation after Yik Kam.)


Tell me
which of the following existing practice of 108 SLT is pure and unchanged of practice Yik Kam's teaching?

Or

Please show me a 108 SLT today which is pure and unchange if none of the above is pure and unchange?

Also, may be we want to ask a question is it possible for something to be pure and unchange after 150 years or more?




A, China
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exQZ1UeL9w

B, Penang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLCTu...eature=related

[Hendrik]

Like I said before this is not an issue as nothing has been lost.

Unless someone taught you what the Cho ancestors did not pass on to there own son's and family?

Lost....?

you lost me on you thinking logic.



please re read my previous post here and lets not getting side track.

There is nothing wrong with evolution, in fact the Cho's CLF hybid evolution has its beauty in it. doing it properly, it be able to expand the dynamic horizon of SLT 108 set.





Also, as in any TCMA, set or form is secondary. Form and set evolve with time.

The important key is does one has the process of attain the Kung Fu which the ancestor could attain. that is the soul of system.

When form is missed or lost, that can always be created and design provided the soul of ths sytem is still there.

[Hendrik]

Ntc,


Thanks and appreciate for you good ideas.

Open discussion is always a good thing and lead to better mutual understanding.

Since we all are not perfect there always room to grow.



two doors are not a principle or ideas. the Two doors could be analogy to the gravity. as soon as one stay in the earth. one cant defy gravity.

It is a nature phenomenon we human need to face for handling the mind/body, otherwise we cant handle it. those two doors are the path ways to access what general ordinary un train mind and body cannot access.

Certainly one can label that two doors in the words one like however one cannot get away from that basic if one needs to handle the mind-body.

So, it is not a believe, a perspective, or a philosophy. it is something real human has to face. Without entering from these two doors, one cant get in to know the body and mind well.

It doesnt have to train SLT for 10 years. it just takes 20 mins per morning and night for 21 days and one will see what have never seen before, and the journey begin.


So stop thinking and speculating and arguing with me in your head, take the two doors and move out, it is not about thinking and philosophy and ideas and religion and Western and Eastern ..... at all. It is take action and move out of the stuckness in that area between the jaw and the top of the head which call brain. it is time to see what is going on instead of believing in what sifu says. life is action and action is doing.

And as to alternative of the two doors, yes I have my own version. But it is not represented as two doors, but as a holistic combination of mind, body, and soul.

The three have to holistically function well and in harmony, otherwise one would experience inadequacies, whether in health, life, martial arts, or other aspects in this world. Mind, body, and soul in harmony does require a smooth flow of Qi, and therefore blood.

Great that you have some view on these.

Without the right mind / body / spirit, the WC fighter cannot be a great fighter. As an example, in the western world, if the person does not have the fighting courage (mind), physical stamina/conditioning (body), or the will / confidence to win (spirit), it is highly doubtful that the person would be a good fighter, regardless of whether WC is used or not. In the eastern world, the mind / body / spirit incorporates much more than this, and this is almost always interwoven within the kung fu system itself and the way it is taught. Differences lie between the east and the west, but still represented as mind/body/spirit.

For me, the two doors are much much fundamental compare with the other ideas. There is no different between the east and west. the issue is do one intended to get into that deep of one's body and mind? if yes, then disregards of east or west since it is a human nature deal. it is like eating. there are western and eastern taste food, but know how to eat come first.




I say learn "advance/interna TCMA" instead of "real TCMA" we need to be specific here. and it is a fact if one have not enter via the two doors one really doesnt know the kung fu and have the kung fu. it is like one cannot ignore gravity while living in the earth.


I see what you bring up.

I move on with those who doesnt interested, thus I dont reply their post. I always share with those who is interested and would like to get something out of their SLT practice.

Like you say above one cannot please every one. similar to the rising sun, the sun will not stop rising because some one is blind. and the sun doesnt force the blind to see it too. that is my attitude.

I dont hold any one wrong it is just as simple as a discussion, like it join it, dont like it ignore it. no one can impose or force any one to read anyone's post.

[ntc]

Hendrik:

"So stop thinking and speculating and arguing with me in your head, take the two doors and move out, it is not about thinking and philosophy and ideas and religion and Western and Eastern ..... at all. It is take action and move out of the stuckness in that area between the jaw and the top of the head which call brain. it is time to see what is going on instead of believing in what sifu says. life is action and action is doing."

From your response above, I can see I got nowhere with my post and you just totally ignored the message I was trying to convey to you. I thought that since you keep presenting yourself as an individual with wisdom and having attained (in your own words) kung fu (unlike the many others who, as you indicated, don't have kung fu since they did not enter the sacred two doors that you keep referring to), that perhaps you had more intellectual maturity and openess for some good communication. Alas, I was wrong, and I acknowledge that. It does seem like it needs to be your "2-door"way or no way.... at least nothing that has got to do with kung fu in any way.

So with that, I will leave you and your sacred "2-door" alone, and will officially have you on my "ignore list". I am dedfinitely anticipating a strong response from you to this post, to which I am not planning to post back. But perhaps someday, when it appears you have noteworthy contributions in your posts, I will definitely not hesitate to respond and share my views as well.. Until then, best of luck in your "2-door" journey.

PS: The only reason why I did not debate any of your criticisms of my post nor address any of the condescending remarks therein is not because I agreed with everything you said. On the contrary, you are so far off the mark. But my reason for not engaging you is very simple: your nonsense remarks are not worth my time or effort responding. The only thing I will say is that my own personal journey goes much deeper than the road travelled by my sifu and me (as you seem to imply) - it encompasses my family's teachings, the teachings of Confuscius/Lao Tzu/Taoism/I Ching/Tao Te Ching/etc in which our Chinese culture is so deeply engrained, the Christian faith that I have, the Chinese medicine that I know and practice, and the many friends and good-hearted folks who have given me advice and guidance over the years. Not to mention the many truly wonderful kung fu masters, both Chinese and non-Chinese, that I have had the pleasure to know and exchange ideas/techniques/philosophies with.

And let me give you one last hint (which I am sure you will respond by telling me you do not need any hints at all) --> though you may not realize, your hardline "2-door" stance is quickly alienating people from you and rocking whatever credibility you might have with the folks on this forum. Not to mention, the hard stance is somewhat embarassing to the Chinese culture because we pride ourselves to be open-minded, respectful, and accepting, rather than a shove-it-down-your-throat type.

[GlennR]

Ntc,


Thanks and appreciate for you good ideas.

Open discussion is always a good thing and lead to better mutual understanding.

Since we all are not perfect there always room to grow.



two doors are not a principle or ideas. the Two doors could be analogy to the gravity. as soon as one stay in the earth. one cant defy gravity.

It is a nature phenomenon we human need to face for handling the mind/body, otherwise we cant handle it. those two doors are the path ways to access what general ordinary un train mind and body cannot access.

Certainly one can label that two doors in the words one like however one cannot get away from that basic if one needs to handle the mind-body.

So, it is not a believe, a perspective, or a philosophy. it is something real human has to face. Without entering from these two doors, one cant get in to know the body and mind well.

It doesnt have to train SLT for 10 years. it just takes 20 mins per morning and night for 21 days and one will see what have never seen before, and the journey begin.


So stop thinking and speculating and arguing with me in your head, take the two doors and move out, it is not about thinking and philosophy and ideas and religion and Western and Eastern ..... at all. It is take action and move out of the stuckness in that area between the jaw and the top of the head which call brain. it is time to see what is going on instead of believing in what sifu says. life is action and action is doing.






Great that you have some view on these.







For me, the two doors are much much fundamental compare with the other ideas. There is no different between the east and west. the issue is do one intended to get into that deep of one's body and mind? if yes, then disregards of east or west since it is a human nature deal. it is like eating. there are western and eastern taste food, but know how to eat come first.




I say learn "advance/interna TCMA" instead of "real TCMA" we need to be specific here. and it is a fact if one have not enter via the two doors one really doesnt know the kung fu and have the kung fu. it is like one cannot ignore gravity while living in the earth.


I see what you bring up.

I move on with those who doesnt interested, thus I dont reply their post. I always share with those who is interested and would like to get something out of their SLT practice.

Like you say above one cannot please every one. similar to the rising sun, the sun will not stop rising because some one is blind. and the sun doesnt force the blind to see it too. that is my attitude.

I dont hold any one wrong it is just as simple as a discussion, like it join it, dont like it ignore it. no one can impose or force any one to read anyone's post.

Why are threads closed down because of a few spats between people on the forum, yet Hendrick seems to be allowed to run rampant with his agenda and then , in my view, arrogantly dismiss anyone who disagrees with him through pseudo intellectual tripe like above

Id rather some good honest arguments witn passion , even if they get a bit heated, than pages and pages of his nonsense.
Am i the only person that feels this way?
GkennR

[Hendrik]

From your response above, I can see I got nowhere with my post and you just totally ignored the message I was trying to convey to you.


I thought that since you keep presenting yourself as an individual with wisdom and having kung fu

(unlike the many others who, as you indicated, don't have kung fu since they did not enter the sacred two doors that you keep referring to),

that perhaps you had more intellectual maturity and openess for some good communication.

Alas, I was wrong, and I acknowledge that.

I respect and appreciate you share your view,
but take look a at your post above, a manipulative agenda isnt it?

Isnt you practicing impose your view on me or you will do anything to punish me agenda?

It does seem like it needs to be your "2-door"way or no way.... at least nothing that has got to do with kung fu in any way.
So with that, I will leave you and your sacred "2-door" alone, and will officially have you on my "ignore list". Perhaps someday, when it appears you have noteworthy contributions in your posts, I will definitely not hesitate to respond and share my views. Until then, best of luck in your "2-door" journey.

You dont have to take what I say, so,
Please ignore me if that make you feel better.

Thanks!

PS:

The only reason why I did not debate any of your criticisms of my post nor address any of the condescending remarks therein is not because I agreed with everything you said.

On the contrary, you are so far off the mark.

But my reason for not engaging you is very simple: your nonsense remarks are not worth my time or effort responding.

And let me give you one last hint (which I am sure you will tell me you do not need any hints at all) --> though you may not realize,

your hardline "2-door" stance is quickly alienating people from you and rocking whatever credibility you might have with the folks on this forum.

Not to mention, the hard stance is somewhat embarassing to the Chinese culture because we pride ourselves to be open-minded, respectful, and accepting, rather than a shove-it-down-your-throat type.

I sense anger and mad and trying to punish me because I am not obidient and follow you, Why is that?

I have never attacked you personally in my previous post, in fact, I am being friendly and reasonable. I just express myself and not following your direction, is that a sin? Even here I choose to not attack you because I can accept others tell me I am just B$ and dont have to force the world my way.

your post here is just confirming your behaviour of "if you dont go my way I will punish you at all cost"

As for what is the facts and truth. you could be right I could be wrong, that I leave it to those who practice the art.

and finally ask yourself, who is trying to shove-it-down to others throat? the one who practice take it or leave it, or the one who practice " if you dont follow my will, I will punished you at all cost?"


Thanks and please ignore me forever.

[Hendrik]

Why are threads closed down because of a few spats between people on the forum, yet Hendrick seems to be allowed to run rampant with his agenda and then , in my view, arrogantly dismiss anyone who disagrees with him through pseudo intellectual tripe like above

Id rather some good honest arguments witn passion , even if they get a bit heated, than pages and pages of his nonsense.
Am i the only person that feels this way?
GkennR

Thank you and appreciate for your comment.

Please feel free to ignore my post since it is not fitting your taste.


If you dont like my view, bring up your theory, your evidenct, your fact and discuss.
I am open for it.

I have never said everyone has to listen to me and have not attack any one just because they have a different view then myself. I dont expect other to buy into what I am presenting and I dont have to follow others view because it is not a sin in agreeing or disagreeing as in any higher education college or university.


I can be stubornly or confidently believe in my view such as when Galileo knows and tell everyone the earth is round, does that has to be punished just because most believe the earth is flat?

Here I truely and respectly propose that those who dont like my post please dont read it.

[FongSung]

My dear Hendrik I simply asked for clarification on your oringnal post

Hendrik: If one look at the distinct different between the Yik Kam SLT and the CLF set of Cho family, one will see how Cho family evolve their art.

1. Are you implying that the Cho Family have evolved the YIK KAM SLT into a CLF set?

OR

2. That in "addition" to the YIK Kam SLT the Cho family created a CLF set were one will see this evolution?

Just a simple answer 1 or 2 to clarify your opinion / statement.

[FongSung]

1,

Let's take a look at what is the facts and let the facts answer your question by itself.


Take a small present day's sample youtube from Cho family China and the known Cho family senior in Penang Malaysia ( who is the oldest in Cho family tree alive today learning his set directly from the second generation after Yik Kam.)

Tell me
which of the following existing practice of 108 SLT is pure and unchanged of practice Yik Kam's teaching?

Or

Please show me a 108 SLT today which is pure and unchange if none of the above is pure and unchange?

Also, may be we want to ask a question is it possible for something to be pure and unchange after 150 years or more?

A, China
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exQZ1UeL9w

B, Penang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLCTu...eature=related

Facts? So you have been to the Cho Village's and to the 19 schools and meet with the Elders that still remember been taught by Cho Dak Sing and asked them their age.

Pure as in not mixed with CLF, unchanged as in not altered since it's teaching from Yik Kam. Not my words but from the head Cho family (son of Cho Cheun) who made this statement in a gathering of Wing Chun master from all over Gwondung province.

As for your VDO clips, is this what your statement is based on, is this your research. Have you visited either? Don't you continuously defend your Tai Chi clips by saying you can not judge what you can not see and must "bai si" to get the goods?

If I were to put 2 links to your "Sihengs" vdo clips on Youtube would that be a fair indicator of the Wing Chun you practise?

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1097318]Thank you and appreciate for your comment.

Please feel free to ignore my post since it is not fitting your taste.


If you dont like my view, bring up your theory, your evidenct, your fact and discuss.
I am open for it.




My theory??
Ok, sure
Mine is that some time ago, a bunch of guys that fight using different styles of Kung Fu happened to get together and hone... through experimentation (ie. fighting).. a style called WC.
It has since gone onto being the worlds most popular form of Kung Fu.
Thats it.

Anymore fantasising about what we lost 150 years ago, or 6 vectors or snakes, monkeys, baboons or whatever is pure martial masturbation

Heres my take on MMA by the way

Mine is that currently, a bunch of guys that fight using different styles of martial arts happened to get together and hone... through experimentation (ie. fighting).. a style called MMA.
It has since gone onto being the worlds most popular form of Martial Art

See the common thread??

Fighting... not fantasy
Thats it.

[kowloonboy]

I am new to Wing Chun, after reading a lot more on this forum, and also researching on WingChunPedia. I am getting more confuse and losing motivation.

Firstly, I started Wing Chun because it is supposed to be simple and direct. This is what attracted me in started my path in learning Wing Chun. I like the principle and concept of Wing Chun as it is supposed to be simple and direct. I had hit a few times hurdle in the last few months, such as that many people online say that Wing Chun is not a practical fighting system, because no Wing Chun Fighter ever success in MMA. I overcame that because I understand that MMA has its rules, and Wing Chun is a street fighting/ self defense system. So I managed to jump over that hurdle, as I have no intention in learning a system for sport.

Here is the biggest hurdle which I have been trying to jump or climb over for the last few months and losing motivation. After more research in Wing Chun on other sites, and from this forum. I now know that there are so many styles of Wing Chun, some Wing Chun systems have more form in their system then my current studying system. I am in the Yip Man lineage. Then there are also the political aspect in Wing Chun, different lineage, and so on. Just searching on the SLT form online, I see so many versions.

Can other members please help me to overcome this big hurdle which I still fail to climb over.

[Runlikehell]

Wing Chun is Wing Chun is Wing Chun. Don't let the politics and lineage wars get into your head (like I did for a time). If what you do works for you, then stick with it but make sure you're happy with it.

[mvbrown21]

Here is the biggest hurdle which I have been trying to jump or climb over for the last few months and losing motivation. After more research in Wing Chun on other sites, and from this forum. I now know that there are so many styles of Wing Chun, some Wing Chun systems have more form in their system then my current studying system. I am in the Yip Man lineage. Then there are also the political aspect in Wing Chun, different lineage, and so on. Just searching on the SLT form online, I see so many versions.

Can other members please help me to overcome this big hurdle which I still fail to climb over.

I know I've made some controversial statements of late but I hope my word can help.

The lineage/style of WC doesn't matter so much as the quality of the teacher. Some put a lot of stock into their Sifu's right away and give him an almost God-like persona. Personally I wouldn't recommend putting any stock into your Sifu until he has proven himself to you as much as you have proven yourself to him.

There are many different styles of good teaching out there. One thing I learned back when I was with the Fire Department was that, as a 'proby', you were going to get one of two styles of Captains. The one who is completely committed to your training and will bend over backwards to show you how to do just about everything. And the one who acts like he wants as little to do with you as possible. The latter won't lead you astray but he leaves the learning up to how bad you really want it, forcing you to figure out a lot of things on your own. Now, it's obvious, which Captain 99% of the 'probies' would go for if they had a choice. The interesting thing, however, was that the committed, goal-getter Captains pushed out robots, by-the-book clones of themselves, while the Captains that appeared to not care pushed out capable, think for themselves, problem solving kind of guys, whom were overall more efficient on the fireground. It seems backwards, doesn't it?

Myself, being one of the lucky ones,(who didn't think he was too lucky at the time!!), realized that by my Captain giving me nothing more than the basic tools of the job, it forced me to adapt my own body and mind uniquely to myself. Sure there were "principles" of firefighter safety that he would be quick to correct me on but ultimately at the end of the day, he couldn't show me how to chop through a roof or drag a 250lb hoseline any better than my body itself could make work. His body and his movement wasn't mine no matter how much our movements might have mirrored each other. So he didn't even try and by him doing that, I learned how to become more efficient with my physical tasks and to think outside the box.

The point is, that WC itself, regardless of lineage, are that basic set of tools. You might use the screwdriver like the label says or you might use it to stab open a can of beans. You might try to muscle that bolt off with the wrench or you might use a cheater bar to help you out. All that matters in your training is that someone shows you what each tool does and how it's 'normally' used. The rest is up to you with what you want to do with it!!

Good luck...


"The second-hand artist blindly following his sensei or sifu accepts his pattern. As a result, his action and, more importantly, his thinking become mechanical. His responses become automatic, according to set patterns, making him narrow and limited." -Bruce Lee

[LoneTiger108]

My dear Hendrik I simply asked for clarification on your oringnal post

Hendrik: If one look at the distinct different between the Yik Kam SLT and the CLF set of Cho family, one will see how Cho family evolve their art.

1. Are you implying that the Cho Family have evolved the YIK KAM SLT into a CLF set?

OR

2. That in "addition" to the YIK Kam SLT the Cho family created a CLF set were one will see this evolution?

Just a simple answer 1 or 2 to clarify your opinion / statement.

I don't think ANY straight answers will come to us here And as much as I would like to be able to take what Hendrik discusses seriously I find it very hard to when he himself has not goy ANY material on film that show us what HE is doing with his evolved training ideas now!

And this is an area, as you know, I have much interest in...