WC Kickboxing

[YouKnowWho]

Who here believes that you need to spend A LOT of time in level 1 clip training before doing level 2 and 3?

How about level 4 and level 5?

Why do you stop at level 3, the kickboxing level? Why not go one level beyond and get into the Sanshou/Sanda level (level 4 - incluse locking and throwing)? You can even go one more level beyond and that will be the MMA level (level 5 - include ground skill).

[trubblman]

How about level 4 and level 5?

Why do you stop at level 3, the kickboxing level? Why not go one level beyond and get into the Sanshou/Sanda level (level 4 - incluse locking and throwing)? You can even go one more level beyond and that will be the MMA level (level 5 - include ground skill).

I prefer level 6, warp speed level

[SavvySavage]

How about level 4 and level 5?

Why do you stop at level 3, the kickboxing level? Why not go one level beyond and get into the Sanshou/Sanda level (level 4 - incluse locking and throwing)? You can even go one more level beyond and that will be the MMA level (level 5 - include ground skill).

Basic wc training doesn't prepare you for shuai jiao and shuai isn't the goal of wc. WC, at its core, is a boxing style. By this limitation you are limited to teach within its parameters. People can do throwing outside and bring it in but it's hard to even say that x throw is in one of the wc forms because the forms are so minimalist in nature.

I agree with the need for standing grappling training.

[YouKnowWho]

Basic wc training doesn't prepare you for shuai jiao and shuai isn't the goal of wc. WC, at its core, is a boxing style.

A Shuai Jiao guy will have the same issue too. He won't know how to punch and kick. A Shuai Jiao guy can spend all his life in throwing. If he wants to obtain some striking skill, he will have to go through the same process as a WC guy tries to obtain his throwing skill. That's "cross training". This issue exists for all MA system, longfist, mantis, Baji, Zimen, Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, Karate, TKD, Aikido, boxing, Judo, MT, BJJ, ... as well. Since there is no "complete" system on earth, we all have to "cross train" in order to be "complete" and not restricted by any particular system that we train.

The kind of people that we have to deal with today are different from the kind of people that our ancestor had to handle. Today we are facing boxers, wrestlers, MT and BJJ guys. We should have more tools in our toolbox in order to compete against the more complex world.

[anerlich]

YKW: Savvy's point seems to me to be that WC on its own does not teach throwing or groundfighting. It is a pugilistic style, strikes and kicks, like ... kickboxing.

Some claim different but have yet to prove their case in any serious arena.

You can do SJ or MMA, but they are not WC.

[YouKnowWho]

You can do SJ or MMA, but they are not WC.

Any style can be evolved. It takes almost 30 years for sport SC to be evolved into 战跤 Chan Chiao (combat SC). If a SC master can train kick and punch, a WC master can train lock and throw too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJs1cclE9V4

[anerlich]

Any style can be evolved. It takes almost 30 years for sport SC to be evolved into 战跤 Chan Chiao (combat SC). If a SC master can train kick and punch, a WC master can train lock and throw too.

That's not evolving the style, that's cross training. I've done WC for nearly 22 years and BJJ for 12, but my WC hasn't changed because I learned takedowns and submissions from BJJ. The way I would defend myself might have, but not the way I practise WC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJs1cclE9V4

WTF does that clip have to do with this discussion? I've seen better kickers, even when they're not wearing bada$$ camo gear.

[HumbleWCGuy]

One of the major things I learned from sparring was that you can't survive just using the wc blocks/parrys/ strikes. It's impossible! The mentality, and I believe it was well intentioned, was to train a few movements to master them. Train fook, lop, bong, etc and be able to blast people away because that's all you do. The problem is that those only work at a certain distance. At other distances the covering seen in boxing/kick boxing work better. And still at other ranges(grappling) none of them apply as they are done in the form or when trained against strikes. Sure you can say that when you throw someone your hand was in fook so you used fook but in reality it wasn't fook.

That's not really the case. Some of it has to do with how you are trained to use the particular blocks and parries. Stepping outside of Wing Chun and trying some boxing or something full-contact oriented could give you the perspective that you need to functionalize your WC more.

In the interest of full disclosure tniehoff doesn't do anything full-contact where he could potentially get hurt so don't get hung up on what he says. Don't treat his as an expert just because he lays on this board night and day.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Not for people who fight.

Nothing more to say about that.

[chusauli]

That's not really the case. Some of it has to do with how you are trained to use the particular blocks and parries. Stepping outside of Wing Chun and trying some boxing or something full-contact oriented could give you the perspective that you need to functionalize your WC more.

In the interest of full disclosure tniehoff doesn't do anything full-contact where he could potentially get hurt so don't get hung up on what he says. Don't treat his as an expert just because he lays on this board night and day.

This is an anonymous poster who has consistently refused to provide his real identity or anything about his alleged WCK training, his assertion that "tniehoff doesn't do anything full-contact where he could potentially get hurt" is based on never having met or trained with him.

Terence for the past 10 years has focused on getting MY WCK to work in a MMA (full-contact) environment. In so doing, he has been accidentally injured several times, from a broken leg to getting a detached retina. And that right now he is nursing a torn rotator cuff injury. HumbleWCGuy is spouting complete nonsense.

Moreover, in my view of WCK, the fundamental aspect of WCK that makes it different than kickboxing or boxing is that our method controls the opponent -- not his hands, but his center -- while we strike him. We are continuously striking and off balancing the opponent.

[HumbleWCGuy]

This is an anonymous poster who has consistently refused to provide his real identity or anything about his alleged WCK training, his assertion that "tniehoff doesn't do anything full-contact where he could potentially get hurt" is based on never having met or trained with him.

Terence for the past 10 years has focused on getting MY WCK to work in a MMA (full-contact) environment. In so doing, he has been accidentally injured several times, from a broken leg to getting a detached retina. And that right now he is nursing a torn rotator cuff injury. HumbleWCGuy is spouting complete nonsense.

Moreover, in my view of WCK, the fundamental aspect of WCK that makes it different than kickboxing or boxing is that our method controls the opponent -- not his hands, but his center -- while we strike him. We are continuously striking and off balancing the opponent.

A personal attack on me doesn't make what I say less true. Terence trains in a full-contact EVIRONMENT but does not train full-contact legitimately. I think that we will find that Terence's injuries were the result of dumb luck rather than attempting to fight or train hard so to speak.

Terrence works out in an mma gym so he trains with mitts, hits bags, and presumably does a lot of drilling out of movement. What we all know that Terrence is unwilling to do is to put himself in a situation where the outcome is success or knock out. This can be accomplished in competition for sure, but it can also be accomplished in the gym. Terrence isn't willing to take that step which is why his opinions are flawed. Terrence might go, "full-contact," if you put him in a full body suit with face shield against a weak opponent. That's about it.

[wolf3001]

It has been my experience that trapping lends itself better to grabs and attempted grabs than to strikes.
The typical mentality of someone trying to grab you is to grab you and feel that contact, when they do they feel they "have you", by trapping you have them but they still perceive that, because of the contact, they have you.
Strikers are different, try to trap them and they will hit and move and hit and move and do pretty much anything NOT to keep contact.
Add to that the typical strike is far faster and comes in combination as opposed to the typical grab that comes as a "onesy" and is slower because the person is attempting to grab and control you instead of trying to knock your head off.

Either grab or even a shove this is where I get the most use out of Chi Sau techniques. Even if someone is using striking if I get close enough I can jam them up and apply some trapping skills. If they are any good as a Boxer using the Chi Sau techniques is difficult or impossible. The last time I sparred I overtook my opponent by getting in close and using a Bong Sau almost as an elbow rolling in such as how we use elbows in Biu Jee. I quickly rolled elbow over elbow catching his strikes and rolling over his arms alternating right to left elbow until I had him trapped. He was stumbling back and then I fired off my chain punches when I had an opening. He was completely dumbfounded at that point.